How to Stop Illegal Downloads
Nov
03
Three days after publication of my new book , The (Honest) Truth About Dishonesty,
I was able to find electronic copies on a few websites that specialize
in illegal content. These were high quality versions of the book,
including the images of the cover, the references, and—my favorite
part—the copyright notice.I was flattered. On one of the sites, the book had been very popular, downloaded over 20,000 times in just a short period of time before my publisher shut it down.
I was also amused. The irony of illegally downloading a book on dishonesty was painfully obvious.
But mainly I was curious, as is my wont. As someone who has been studying dishonesty for many years, what could I learn from the theft of my own book?
My first insight came with a personal conversion. Before it was my book being illegally downloaded, I was more on the “Information wants to be free” end of the spectrum. The sudden, though predictable, shift in my feelings when I found my own work being downloaded for free was a jarring experience. Maybe Information finds complete freedom too threatening, I thought, and maybe it would rather be a bit more protected. It was a very clear example of how my own views of morality are biased – as are everybody’s — based on our immediate perspective.
Recently in a lecture on dishonesty in San Francisco I was explaining, as I always do, that dishonesty is largely founded on our ability to rationalize, and a young guy stood up and argued that downloading music was actually the right thing to do. He said that the companies make lots of money while artists don’t (they make the music for the public, not for profit). And either way, he wouldn’t buy the music anyway so it wouldn’t make a difference. “My friend,” I said, “thank you for proving my point about rationalization.” Then I asked him to imagine if the product in question represented several months or even years of his life. All that time he was creating, writing, editing, and marketing this thing in order to fund his next project. And then everyone downloaded it, illegally, for free. At which point he sat down.
My second thought, after realizing my popularity in the “download for free” category, was about the potential for moral deterioration on a broader scale. Once people start seeing a particular behavior—such as illegally downloading books, music, and movies—as a very common behavior, there is a chance that this sense of social proof will translate into a new understanding of what is right and wrong. Sometimes such social shifts might be desirable—for instance, being part of an interracial couple used to be considered illegal and immoral, but now we see such couples all around us and it helps shape our understanding of social approval. However, the behaviors we most often observe and notice are ones that are outside of the legitimate domain (e.g., doping in sports, infidelity by politicians, exaggerated resumes by CEOs) and in these cases the social proof can change things for the worse.
And then I had an insight about confession. How can we stop such trends toward dishonesty (in this case, broader acceptance of illegal downloading)? The problem is that if someone has acquired 97% of their music illegally, why would they legally buy the next 1%? Would they do it in order to be 4% legal? It turns out that we view ourselves categorically as either good or bad, and moving from being 3% legal to being 4% legal is not a very compelling motivation. This is where confession and amnesty can come into play.
What we find in our experiments is that once we start thinking of ourselves as polluted, there is not much incentive to behave well, and the trip down the slippery slope is likely. This is the bad news. The good news is that in such cases, confession, where we articulate what we have done wrong, is an incredibly effective mechanism for resetting our moral compass. Importing this religious practice into civic life was effective in the Truth and Reconciliation Act in South Africa, where acknowledging the many abuses and violations of the apartheid government allowed the South Africans to forgive past sins, and start fresh.
I think that this same approach could be effective in preventing people from illegally downloading music and books. Why don’t we offer young people (because let’s face it, most of them have some illegally downloaded material on their computers) the opportunity to admit and apologize, receive amnesty for the material they already have, and start fresh.
In the meantime, until we adopt this course of action, I am hoping that the New York Times will create a Best Seller list for a new category – the Most Illegally Downloaded Books.
I have been downloading many books online, including yours Predictably irrational. Not that I enjoy doing so; but it gives me the opportunity to see what is inside the book before I buy the hard copy version. There are many books I bought and disappointed after purchasing them. However, the existence of soft copies have helped me to buy books that I enjoy reading and not to buy the bad ones. For example, despite having the soft copy of predictably irrational, I decided to buy the hard copy and read it more thoroughly –writing my notes on the side, underlining,… It is here on my shelf, where I can see it.
I download soft copies not to do what is considered illegal; rather to have a more detailed look before I buy the book. For that matter, Ariel Rubinstein has almost all of his books freely available and I have bought all of them and have them on my shelf in hard copies. If all authors were like him, it would make my purchase decisions more efficient. Interestingly, I haven’t bought your new book and I won’t unless I go through it first. I don’t find it fair to pay for the books I don’t enjoy reading. So Dan, take the boldest measure like Ariel and post your books for download freely so that we can check them before we pay our hard earned money.
If your argument is against individuals gaining access to copies without paying for them, surely you’re against public libraries too. They buy copies but then share them among a large number of patrons. The author isn’t paid on a per-patron basis. I know that I read a lot more books from the library than I buy, but that I do buy a few books which I’ve read a borrowed copy of.
I don’t know of any authors foolish enough to deny libraries access to their work. Publishers perhaps–especially over ebooks–but not the authors. There are over 121k libraries in the US alone. Of those ~9,300 public, ~3,700 academic and ~100,000 in public and private schools serving our children.
A few other points:
Libraries aren’t generating and distributing unlimited copies. If you want to read it, watch it or listen to it…wait your turn or if you’re impatient buy a copy or borrow it from a friend.
Library reads may eventually turn into a purchase of another book by the author, or recommendations for purchase (e.g. at a book club), etc. Some countries even pay out royalties based on circulation rates of library copies (not a bad idea, but it doesn’t happen in the U.S.).
Libraries are steady purchasers unlike much of the public. They’ll even regularly purchase titles that never make a bestseller list. So while an author/publisher may lose marginal income on a bestseller purchased by libraries, they make money where the rest of the distribution is likely a loss (bookstores that send back unpurchased copies, etc).
Not a bad investment for publishers and authors.
Thought experiment: are you saying libraries are only ok because they are inefficient and limited? So there’s some line where if libraries start making access too fast and easy for too many people at once then libraries become a bad thing? Is it not the case that if making access available to everyone through the library is good that improving this access and making it more efficient is even better?
And if you were to draw a line, where is it? Is the line just wherever creators still get adequate pay? If so, then you must admit agreeing with me that the whole issue is just about pay and has nothing to do with control or morality (aside from that information should not be controlled and it is moral to share, as long as creators are still compensated for their time)
Don’t lie and claim to speak for the majority who wouldn’t. Those who find value in a person’s work WILL pay for it.
So you can troll as much as you like. History tells us many if not most consumers will continue to seek every opportunity to circumvent paying for goods and services whenever possible. And when they do pay, they’ll complain about the cost which is always higher than what they prefer to pay…nothing at all.
According to his studies, almost everyone cheats but only to a small extent. When given the opportunity to cheat with absolutely no way to get caught, almost nobody goes all out. Everyone cheats just a little. There are tons of factors from honor statements to social context to exhaustion to wishful thinking.
You really should read his book!! It’s wonderful and compelling. It makes so much sense that everyone claims that they knew the stuff all along (hindsight bias, of course).
I’ve purchased and read all three of Dan’s books shortly after publication. I’ve been recommending the first two to colleagues for quite some time now. Big fan of his research.
Dan’s research appears to reflect reality. Everyone does cheat a little. However it seems they do so with great frequency.
Again, online purchases and “illegal” downloading are two great examples. While each individual occurrence could be quantified as a “small extent”, the cumulative impact is anything but small.
The only question is whether the illegal copying is psychologically similar to all the other cheating. My opinion is that in many cases it is! In other words, many people who illegally copy are in fact doing just what you suspect: rationalizing but feeling that they are cheating just like everyone who cheats on their schoolwork!
The thing is: I believe the answer is to validate sharing and copying but really push back on freeloading. The problem is that when copyright restrictions become draconian (huge penalties way out of proportion, for example, and some people want to stop the selling of used books or stop my from copying a piece of sheet music for my personal purpose of writing analysis on it), the result is that people (like me) lose respect for the institution of copyright. You said you agreed about the terms of copyright being absurd, and you support limited copyright so things actually enter the public domain. So we agree about these things.
But the more I’ve studied this, the more I feel that there are further benefits to society to really do away with copyright and find alternative economic mechanisms (of which there are many already). Still, I’m happy to compromise. Reasonable copyright that truly respects fair use, does not demonize people, has limited terms… it could work, it’d be an improvement. We can figure out compromise if we get past dogmatic insistence that copying is necessarily theft and is evil or something.
First, understand that very few writers “become rich”. I know many struggling writers and none that are rich or even upper middle class. And those who manage to do well are fortunate to have enormous fan bases. Apparently millions of people feel their “crap” is worth reading.
I don’t know if your money is “hard earned” or not, but I should hope you choose to spend it on books that you might enjoy. Some books/movies/songs might live up to your expectations and others might not. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pay for the experience and opportunity to view, read or listen to the material.
You can’t walk into ColdStone Creamery today and ask to eat an entire sundae before paying for it so that you may decide first if you’ll enjoy it enough for it to be worth purchasing. No. Instead you pay for it, try it and if you don’t enjoy it you simply don’t buy it again or try a different shop. If you do enjoy it, you might try other flavors from that shop just as you might choose to purchase and read, view or listen to other works from a particular author or band.
Ridiculously lengthy copyrights aside (to me that’s a different debate), downloading for free occurs because consumers are greedy and self-serving. Given the opportunity a large majority of consumers will take absolutely everything they can obtain freely, for as long as they are able, regardless of the impact on others. They simply don’t care about the issue until and unless it affects them personally and deeply.
Excerpts of both “The (Honest) Truth About Dishonesty” and “Predictably Irrational” are legally available. Accessing them is at least as easy as finding illegal downloads.
A quick search revealed excerpts available at scribd.com, the Harper Collins site, the Diane Rehm (NPR) site, this site(!) and elsewhere. You can also read excerpts of both at Amazon with the “Look Inside” function.
No matter how you slice and dice the situation, the moment you illegally download a book (or anything else, for that matter) because you want to make sure it is worth it, you are illegally downloading a book, from a website that is illegally distributing content! You may mean well, but you are still supporting a site that should not exist, to begin with.
Besides, there are so many other options we have to decide on purchasing something or not:
- If you know the author and you enjoy his/her previous works, you may enjoy their current work.
- Go to a book store (I understand! They are becoming rarer and rarer) and peruse the book.
- Buy a cheap eReader and download free samples of the book.
- Check Amazon.com. You can peek inside the book and read some of it.
- Read online reviews of the book.
The options to make a decision are out there. And if sometimes you buy something you do not enjoy, too bad! How many times have you been to a restaurant for the first time and asked for a free sample of their dishes, so you could make a decision?
simple request: do not use “illegal” to assume automatically “immoral.” Make your case based on morality, because that is the issue here. Also, do use “steal” or any analogy to scarce physical goods when talking about digital media. Then, if you have something still to say about the issue, there can be a worthwhile discussion about it.
I think the real issues are: fair compensation for creators, motivation for creators, access for the public, and the problem of playing be different sets of rules for those who follow the law and those who don’t or for those who release content freely and those who don’t. Those are real issues, and they warrant discussion.
If you think it unfair that the author isn’t providing as much of a preview as you feel is necessary, buy a different book. Taking a free copy and telling the author, “Suck it, but also keep providing high quality free materials for me!” is illogical.
People who download books without paying the author / publisher for them are either habitual, previewing the content, enjoy sharing anything & everything and / or disagreeing with the price of those ebooks put forth, A segment of these downloaders would pay if the price matched a little more people would buy them for themselves and as gifts for others. Certain prices would make books an impulse buy. People always want to trade money for information, so impulse buy prices aren’t a ridiculous way to go. I have a library of steam games that were had so cheap that I’ll get around to them eventually but let’s just say I’ve gotten a few decent games for $5.00 and that’s a heck of a deal considering the work involved. Every video game takes way more work than writing your typical book. More people, more man hours, it’s just a fact.
Cory Doctorow publishes his books for free under a creative commons license on his site internet and obviously for retail price in stores. That’s a model that works for him. Others do it too. I think they’d rather see their work get into the hands of more people that way,
Hehehe. Not really. 1.) Publishers don’t make everything available as an eBook at a reasonable price to libraries, as it would not be rational to do so. 2.) Libraries can’t circulate unlimited copies of a given eBook title (they buy the rights to individual copies, just as they buy physical books), so there is a good chance that if something is new, you will have to wait many weeks or even months to get the eBook version from the library.
This is not to say I disagree with the rest of your comment.
Don’t assume the reverse either. It isn’t illegal to cheat on your partner. That doesn’t mean cheating is okay.
One problem with debates about illegal downloading is that the ease of getting away with it often slips into an argument for its moral acceptability. If shoplifting was just as easy to get away with, would that make it okay?
In a democracy, the principal moral argument for obeying laws you don’t like is that you have the power to change them through voting in elections. A society in which everyone was completely free to opt out of any law they personally disliked would be unworkable. No man is an island.
Aaron Wolf: “Also, don’t use “steal” or any analogy to scarce physical goods when talking about digital media.”
So what’s your take on money? Most money doesn’t even exist in physical form. So, if we could add some to our personal bank accounts by digital means – what used to be called forgery – would there be something wrong with that or not? Does the US treasury have the right to create an artificial scarcity with money or not?
http://questioncopyright.org/faq#fraud
That’s the heart of the issue: you can’t say it is wrong because it is illegal. You have to show WHY it would be wrong to make unrestricted copying fully legal!
If your answer is: because creators need to be funded, then you must admit that, in principle, best solution would be to find funding mechanisms that don’t rely on copyright restrictions. That’s how I see, and figuring this out is the challenge we face. I.e. the goal is NOT to stop copying, the goal is to provide funding while fully allowing copying. This may not be easy, but it is the right goal, and it is also more realistic than stopping copying!
The libraries have permission and generally pay for it. Libraries have long paid a premium for each new physical copy of a book/DVD/CD on hand. This is partly due to the books being of generally higher and more durable quality, and partly as compensation for lending the content out over time. It’s not a lot considering the number of times the media may be on loan–perhaps 300-400%–but it’s more than the cost of a single retail copy. I am not sure how it works with donated media.
Essentially there are two approaches. Either the musician sells her music to her audience; or she sells her audience to someone else. The second approach has always existed – as with commercial radio, where the audience listens for free, but their ears are sold on to advertisers (I’m not sure if there’s an equivalent for books). But, since you keep stressing morality, isn’t that less morally transparent than the creator selling directly to the audience?
In recent years we’ve seen a massive increase in product placements in movies and pop videos. Personally I find these underhand adverts distasteful. But when people download illegally, they’re effectively voting for that business model.
This is why we need alternative business models. I HATE the product placement and ad-placement business model. You are right about these traditional revenue sources, but you are wrong to imply that they are the only options. There are tons of examples of successful business models. In fact, most evidence shows that making copies available freely *increases* direct sales.
The most scarce thing in media today is audience attention. There’s more to read or listen to or whatever than any of us will ever have time for, and lots of it is great, and lots of it is legally free. Blocking access is backwards and misguided. Everyone has the ability to choose to pay or not these days, and they often choose to pay. The worst thing for an author is obscurity. Simply put, the entire idea that copying is bad for anything, whether economics or morality or anything… sorry but the facts don’t add up.
https://www.techdirt.com/blog/casestudies/articles/20120210/02273417726/how-being-more-open-human-awesome-can-save-anyone-worried-about-making-money-entertainment.shtml
Cheers,
Aaron
As Edward says, it’s a matter of perceived fairness. This controversy will disappear when there comes into play a low-friction mechanism that allows a fair price to be paid for creative content. As it stands now everyone realizes that publishing companies (and allies) are piratical in their pricing of electronic books, and that has given birth to all kinds of silly rationalizations. But it’s the publisher’s fault. They could have anticipated a big push-back to their rip-off. People may not be aware of all the steps involved in conventional publishing that starts with the truck driver who takes the bulldozer to the forest where the operator then builds a road that lets the logger in to fell the trees, at which point the skidder operator drags them to the landing, then a loader lifts them onto the truck, then the driver takes them to the pulp mill, where they get ground up and mashed and soaked and squashed then made into paper, then shipped to the publisher, then run through the presses, then warehoused, then trucked to the stores, then the often numerous unsold volumes get trucked back to the warehouse where they’re destroyed and the resulting mess recycled or parked in a landfill – all at an enormous labor, energy and environmental costs.
And though many aren’t aware of these particulars, they do have a sense that an enormous cost has been removed from the ledgers of publishing companies. And yet these publishers have colluded in making e-books sometimes even more expensive than books in print. This is monumentally stupid, and yet completely human. It’s normal to be grasping and illogical. At some point (and there are a number of teams out there currently working on the details) these books will be priced cheaply – very cheaply. They will sell like hotcakes and nobody will be stealing the fruits of anyone’s labor. Priced at less than dollar, publishers will make books available to the world. They will sell umpteen million copies of good books and get reasonable returns even for their mistakes. But the person who slaves away and writes a good book will make plenty of money and so will the editors, illustrators, researchers, translators, proofreaders, etc.
In less than five years information will become nearly-free, and will be so because everyone will be gobbling up more of it than ever before – yes, people will be spending more, per capita, than they would if prices stay as they are. And that, in the end, is what will increase the quality and quantity of information. Nearly-free is better than free because everyone also knows, intuitively, that there is no free lunch. We’re hardwired to spot the cheaters.
those shops with qualified personell – most likely to be only known for our children only from history -books, oh no,, -history-section on their electronic ipads…………..
this just sounds like another case of rationalization. The people who download illegal content are not entitled to determine who is allowed to earn (extra) money with his intellectual labor. Well, if scientists who are paid by society to do their research want to publish their research in a scientific journal, one might argue that they would be obliged to offer it for free to the public. But even if they publish it at a commercial provider, they do not earn anything from it, often they even have to pay for this big time. And often there are no alternative free content journals with the same kind of quality editing, readership range and reputation. A lot has do be done with this.
But if a grand scientist like Dan wants to write a popular book on his favorite subjects, how do you dare to not want to let him earn a little extra income from his devotion? He does it in his free time, invests a lot of labor and gives the public something they do not get from their average researcher. And a lot of other people in the book and book store business are helped in making their livings. There are a lot of extremely well written non fiction books which would never have been written if their authors would not have seen the chance to do some business, not only Dan’s books but for example “Stumbling on happiness” by Daniel Gilbert or “The righteous mind” by Jonathan Haidt. Do not try to foreclose that kind of creativity!
The “information wants to be free” crowd generally consists of people who don’t rely on information for their primary source of income. It’s quite easy for someone who already has a “day job” to produce and publish free content without concern about how it might pay the bills or feed his family. In fact, that free content now competes with content developed by those who rely on paid content for a living. Unfortunately most consumers cannot relate because the free exchange of information has zero impact on their own abilities to earn a living.
Imagine the outrage if consumers chose to “free” other products and services by contributing above and beyond their income-earning day jobs. Free tax preparation, financial planning, graphic art, auto repair and general labor doing assembly work at the local manufacturing plant. Perhaps banking, tax preparation, auto repair and landscaping want to be free too. How might people in these fields react?
Do you know this to be true or just speculating? Much more importantly, regardless of reality, if it were the case that the Free Culture advocates were mostly professional content creators, would this make the arguments any more or less valid?
Anyway, there’s no use comparing scarce things like personal service and non-scarce things like digital media. The one thing that is valid here is figuring out how to fund media creation. Creating artificial scarcity through copyright restrictions is a very problematic means to the valid ends of funding creators.
And yes, I have suggestions for better alternatives. I’m actually working on this and will have public announcements within the next several months.
I am a German science writer and I sell my books – books on very similar subjects like the ones by Dan – on Amazon as ebooks. Now I absolutely do not see the point in your sentence “Creating artificial scarcity through copyright restrictions is a very problematic means to the valid ends of funding creators”. I protect my ebooks with DRM, as I do not want to have them stolen. This is just the same as the antitheft devices as so many stores use to protect their textiles or anything against beeing stolen. In reality, DRM does not produce any problems for the honest buyer. I do read DRM protected books on a daily basis, and never had any problem with it. It works like fun on my kindle. The only ones who ever complain about DRM are the ones who are not like the idea to pay the price for the book in the first place. The critical talk about DRM is a red herring. The problem with digital content theft seems to me to be psychological: If you steal an ebook, you do not get the impression of stealing, because the is no object taken away and letting a void behind it. The content is still there. But you very well may have stolen a sale. This hurts the producer as much as when you steal a trouser.
“Anyway, there’s no use comparing scarce things like personal service and non-scarce things like digital media. [... snip... ] Creating artificial scarcity through copyright restrictions is a very problematic means to the valid ends of funding creators.”
“Artificial scarcity” is another favorite go-to of people rationalizing free downloads of non-free content, but this pseudo-economics argument is at best absurdly incomplete, and at worst, intentionally misleading. Yes, *copies* of digital media are non-scarce, but the *creation* of those works of digital media most certainly are not. As the article says, a single creative work may represent “several months or even years” of creators’ lives.
As such, creators are performing a service that may or may not provide value to consumers depending on whether they appreciate the creative work. You yourself allude to it: service (personal or otherwise) *is* scarce. But if value is provided, some payment should be made in return, but overwhelmingly, it is not. (Hint: those terabytes of daily BitTorrent traffic are *not* Linux ISOs.)
Hence, in illegal downloading, there is value potentially provided in one direction (creators to consumers), but extremely rarely in the other direction. It is not a fair deal, and this is one of those many cases where an activity is illegal *because* it is immoral. Put another way, people are taking (a copy of) something and deriving value from it without paying for the effort required to produce that work. As such, economically, there is little difference between illegal downloading and stealing, and people who argue otherwise are often simply attempting to rationalize by arguing semantics.
I completely understand that there are many barriers imposed by creators themselves, that make piracy worse, such as region-locking and delays in distribution across international boundaries, but that does not entitle people to obtain things illegally.
Just because I point out the that many of the arguments from copyright law apologists are invalid doesn’t mean I think all of their possible concerns are invalid.
” In reality, DRM does not produce any problems for the honest buyer. ”
Wrong. From the first time I purchased software with a “manual lookup” 25+ years ago, I had nothing but trouble from DRM. You mean to say that you personally don’t have any problems but this isn’t true for the vast majority of regular consumers of DRM goods. DRM consistently produces problems for the honest buyer. It’s the “pirates” that don’t have any problems with DRM because they’ve long since removed it. If I buy software and I can have an experience where I don’t have to deal with the lame DRM scheme by downloading a pirated copy, I do so in a heartbeat. Why should I be punished because I paid for it? Answer me that with something that won’t wash away with the first rain.
“I do read DRM protected books on a daily basis, and never had any problem with it. It works like fun on my kindle.”
This is a fallacy that we experience in the technical field a lot. It’s called the “works for me”(so there’s obviously not a problem) fallacy. It’s an utter falsehood. Just because you don’t have problems with them doesn’t mean the rest of us do not as well. I use Linux and refuse to own a Kindle, i Pad or otherwise so tell me how it will be the same experience for me. The moment you think you have that answered, I’ll tell you about how I’m trying to read it on my Silicon Graphics workstation, etc. The problem is that DRM can’t take into account all the factors of all the ways the product will be used and as such it does indeed cause problems.
“The only ones who ever complain about DRM are the ones who are not like the idea to pay the price for the book in the first place. ”
Wrong again. The people who complain about DRM are the people who paid for their content and then are *forced* to sit through 5 minutes of being told they’re pirates/thieves by the MPAA. Or the people who are told they can’t use their new game because their internet connection is down. Or a million other situations.
You sir have ZERO idea of what a consumer is or what problems they might actually have with your precious DRM and I might suggest you read a blog like Techdirt, as much as I personally dislike them, so you can get in touch with your consumers’ experiences because their thoughts on the subject are surely no where near your own.
I’m from South Africa. It’s incredibly difficult to acquire content legally. Especially Movies & series’ are not released on the same time scale as the US. This creates a huge demand because we see friends talking about the new show they watched, we cannot get it via any legal channel online or offline (iTunes, locally, etc etc)
This is the same rubbish as DVD zones that were created.
The movies houses, content publishers, distributors etc need to realize that we live in a hyper connected world. Old school business methods will continue to be challenged.
My main point is that all these barriers promote illegal acquisition of content. People will continue to bypass these obstacles whether that means having to VPN to a US based server to get a US IP address to watch something or download it illegally because it’s not available any other way.
Actually, I would prefer to buy this content…
It´s not about telling anybody to not download anything illegally, it’s about building new services and products that make illegal downloading behavior obsolete (think Spotify and Kickstarter, not “lawyer”), it’s about finding new business models for the people who create content. In a world of information abundance, the problem of an author shouldn’t be if his books are illegally downloaded, his problem should be if he is texts are read at all. Attention is the scarce good now, not the access to information. So if an author, musician, artist has the attention of an audience. Maybe it´s for many a concept like Kevin Kellys “1000 true fans” ( http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/03/1000_true_fans.php ) , maybe it´s new forms of flatrates and subscription models, maybe it´s something else, but there will be a way to monetize it.
We have to build this new ways, and it makes no sense to think in models of an old media world, that had a complete different set of technology and society.
Maybe the perfect solution is not there yet, but we will find one soon. And one thing is sure: The guys who still believe in the old models of distributing and capitalizing content, who try to stay in the old “status quo”, won´t be the people who find the new solution. It´s not about honesty or dishonesty of the users at all, it´s about the industry and their willingness to see the big new potentials of an information age, that nobody could have predicted just 30years ago. We have more and faster access to information than ever before. Exciting times.
http://www.tech.sc/rovio-mobile-piracy-is-not-bad-angry-birds-fanbase/
But in getting us to think clearly about the legal framework for new behaviors in society, he cited Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., who in a speech to the Harvard Law School Association of New York said the following in 1913:
“It cannot be helped, it is as it should be, that the law is behind the times.”
That’s my first thought whenever I see the word “illegal” in this vein.
Behavioral norms in this area have changed already (surely a survey of your current undergraduates could confirm this in spectacular fashion).
Either behaviors will switch back to accommodate old business models, or those models, and the laws that undergird them, will change to catch up from being so far behind the times. Which one sounds like a better bet to you?
Sorry Ariely, but I cannot see why people should feel guilty when it is clear these corporations don’t feel the slightest guilt about continuously lobbying of the government so as to continue to create artificial ownership of something that should have been public domain decades ago, and would have been were it to follow the patent limitations ….
I live in a smaller town, which has no theater, and I would likely never travel in order to see something like this. I have however downloaded the clips because I found the concept that people would go to this much trouble to be fascinating.
The same goes with theatrical releases that only appear in various theaters across the country. And I’m willing to bet there are many people from all walks of life in various countries around the world that have other reasons for pirating copyrighted materials outside of the cliché “fighting against evil”.
I agree many people use rationalizations to justify illegal actions. But I don’t think there is much need for worry in regards to this matter. As technology progresses it will become painfully easier to track, monitor, and prosecute those who violate various copyright protection agreements.
The sad part of this for me is there are those who try to give away their works. People who want their articles to be published for free, or their softwares. And yet despite this people find a way to charge unknowing individuals for them.
Freedom of information should have a line, but I doubt anybody can say for certain where that line would best be suited in order to benefit the majority of the inhabitants of this world we live in. It is likely that various types of information require ranges of freedom, and not certain limits.
Not many people would recognize their own shift in perspective during a transition such as this. The reason I’ve enjoyed your works is it can help us identify these patterns in ourselves. So while you say it can lead to a slippery slope at the same time it may be your book that helps people see the error in their ways, as it is people who likely have downloaded other illegal materials that would have no benefit towards their moral outlook whatsoever.
As for how to stop violation of copyright, it is my belief it is in everyone’s interest. Those who produce need payment for their time. Supply will generally meet demand, and only paid demand counts. Thus, the fewer who pay, the less demand, the less supply. Examples of this can be found in TV shows that have been huge hits on the illegal download circuit, but got low ratings when aired. The result is always cancellation of the show.
As for a solution, it is my belief that ease, comfort and availability are dominant factors, rather than morality. My own behavior is case in point. While a student, (before illegal downloads were mass available) I spent a lot on CD’s. Then illegal filesharing made it easier to check out new music at home when it suite me, and I amassed an impressive collection. When Yahoo! (If memory serves me right) offered subscription service, and I stopped bothering searching illegal sources; and subscribed. This morphed through several services, until I am now a paying Spotify user. The same happened when I got a Kindle, instant gratification, I could read a book when I learned of it, rather than wait for delivery. Same for software, access to subscription services at a reasonable price reduced my interest in illegal copies to zero. Give me equal ease for movies and TV shows and I will be sold.
The conclusion: when offered a legal alternative which is superior to an illegal one, priced reasonably, many or most will switch to the alternative standing on the moral high ground.
I’m very interested in this post of yours, because I was planning to contact you in the near future to see if you (or maybe just pass on to your students or colleagues) might be interested in reviewing my proposals for a foundation I’m starting for a new behavioral-economics-based funding mechanism to support Free Software and Free Culture.
To put it quite simply, you have failed to make the case that your argument is the moral one and the other side is rationalizing. How do you know that YOU aren’t the one rationalizing here? It doesn’t work to simply say that the law is in your favor. There is a moral debate here, and you can’t fairly dismiss the other side as rationalizing without checking yourself.
As Richard put it above, there’s the public library. I’ve read your books by getting them that way. Do I have dishonest behavior to rationalize? I don’t think so. How do you rationalize my reading library books being fine but downloading illegally to be immoral? I’m pretty sure that if you have a rationalization it isn’t much more than that.
I think the issues here have less to do with illegal file sharing and more to do with social norms. When content creators unilaterally release their work freely while others do not, it creates a lot of social pressure and conflicting feelings. If there were no copyright laws, then we would be on the same page.
Anyway, it is a complicated subject, and I hope you will continue to be open-minded about it. I am a musician and content creator myself, so I can see things from your side. I still think that if you really look into the arguments for Free Culture beyond your random straw man example, you will find them far more compelling — if you are able to get beyond your own bias as an author interested in income and control.
I have an older essay on this, including citations of YOUR work, at my website: http://blog.wolftune.com/2008/06/rational-view-of-copyright.html
And the whole darn thing is licensed with Creative Commons for free use and modification.
Cheers
As an aside, I was hoping that content creators could chime in on this: if you found out that I borrowed your book from a library and read it for free rather than buying it, does it somehow generate a different emotional response than illegal downloading? In both cases, I was able to view your work without paying you.
As others pointed out, the online illegal copy was ALSO purchased originally, although you are correct that distribution wasn’t authorized. At any rate, it’s interesting to hear that Germany pays authors based on library loans. I’m quite certain that does not happen in the U.S. Anyway, the idea that we all pay taxes to support a public library and then this helps filter funds to content creators — that sounds good to me.
At any rate, we can recognize BOTH that authors need adequate compensation AND that restrictions on access, sharing, and modification are bad for the general public. I’m working on a solution to handle both concerns. Reactively defending the legal status quo is not a solution.
I suggest you read my article I linked above, and the links included there.
Rolf and Aaron, as a librarian I can confirm absolutely that in the US and Canada, there is no per-lending fee that libraries pay anyone, again because of the First Sale Doctrine. It should be noted that the First Sale Doctrine is in front of the US Supreme Court right now in the specific context of material that is produced outside of the US and then imported. The First Sale Doctrine applies to everything, not just books, so the pending case has raised the issue of whether you can even resell a used car if it was produced outside the US, without permission of the manufacturer.
For example all the fact checking organizations that have cropped up in the last few years seem to have no effect or possibly a worsening effect on lies and misleading statements by politicians. (I have no data that it is getting worse – it just very unscientifically feels that way)
I wonder if their continued dishonesty is sort of a reverse confession. In other words, we try to be what we openly define ourselves as. Once we have been outed as dishonest and accept it as public knowledge, we live up to it. If we publicly confess, we then try to live up to that.
Number one is vegetarianism. I know countless vegetarians who come to it with an almost puritanical fervor. If they eat meat by accident or in a moment of weakness they feel absolutely awful about it, and can even give up their vegetarianism as a result.
To me, this doesn’t make any sense. As a vegetarian, if I eat meat by mistake I shrug and move on. But I feel rare in this regard. I suppose in the minds of those people that suddenly switch back, they are polluted and there’s no point in going on.
As for the point about amnesty, I found a few years ago when I switched from a windows pc to a mac I stopped downloading apps illegally. I have no idea really why, but I have heard other people say they felt the same way. But I think what you articulated is the answer – it is that feeling of a fresh start (which the Apple brand is very powerful at creating in people) which made me switch my policy on this.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/business/2012/11/how-apple-avoids-paying-billions-taxes/58681/
As a follower of your work and others, I did an experiment myself with a recently written book on personal economic choices. It is titled “Recupera tu futuro” and I decided to create a weblog where the readers can download a pdf for free. Then, they find a messagge inside the book inviting them to contribute with a free amount as a price for the book, giving them three anchors: 5, 10 and 15€. Payment is via paypal to my direct account. I made some small publicity and had a hundred visitors, enough to test the reaction. So far, none did pay, even if there are about 70 downloads.
What I intended with this initiative was going with the flow of the attitudes of internet users and then appeal at their responsability to change and make the payment. What do you think?
Now I’m preparing an epub version of the book. The idea is to leave a sample of pages of the book of free downloading and invite the reader to buy the whole ebook. This is a very classical approach and I deeply regret to leave the first one. Any comments will be welcome.
“I asked him to imagine if the product in question represented several months or even years of his life. All that time he was creating, writing, editing, and marketing this thing in order to fund his next project. And then everyone downloaded it, illegally, for free.”
I’ve heard of several musicians who have written blockbuster songs in 15 minutes. Your implication is that these works deserve less copyright protection because there was less effort put into their creation. The bad part is that it isn’t even fair. A 15 minute work of genius is worth more to our society than all the overproduced crap that takes months to put out.
On the other side, look at patent law. Elisha Gray also invented the telephone. He put a lot of work into his version, but he received nothing because Alexander Graham Bell submitted his patent first.
Effort does not make a person deserve a payout. If I decided to invent a better mousetrap, and spent years revising it, why would its idea be worth more than if it had come to me in an inspired moment?
Intellectual property is about the content and not about the effort. We have copyright because exclusive rights encourage creators to create something. Forget talking about how much effort you put into it. Talk about how you thought of something that had never been conceived before, and you receive no reward because it is stolen and monetized by somebody else. Why would you put your soul into your next work?
What incentive would you use to make people not download rights protected material in the global society of nowadays?
Do you think that downloading ‘rights protected material’ without payment will stay illigal for much longer or maybe law definition and law it self would change with continued developments in technology?
When such a large proportion of the population commits a “sin”, I think we would be remiss to shout solutions down at them from the moral high ground rather than trying to understand how they are acting and why. There’s a real research opportunity here and I think it’s disappointing that this post seems to be dismissive of such behavior as immoral rather than curious to investigate and understand the mechanisms behind it.
My personal rules are: a) No physical. b) No drm, and free format. I don’t want to worry if I read the book in my android tablet, in my iphone, or even in a text terminal. c) I only buy if the online store for the epub is easier to find than the book on any piracy site.
BTW: I don’t know if you realize that if you put the name of your book plus the format in which you want the book, there is no way to buy. Only direct download, with no payment options!!
So, If you want to sell you book, why you don’t by a domain (6 eur) and ask someone to create a store ( let’s say 1000eur ).
What was your reason to copyright your works, Dan? (Remember–no rationalizing!)
Watch this video!–It’s a great treatment by CGP Grey on copyright. Be sure to watch the credits to all the copyrighted material at the end!
Personally I think Dan is wrong (not caught up to this decade yet) if he thinks that major publishing house distribution is more effective at reaching a wide audience than making it available for free online but that’s an empirical question.
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#### 1 – You don’t get to say how people should behave
“The role of any entrepreneur is to make money given the contemporary constraints of society and technology. They do not get to dismantle civil liberties, even if – and perhaps especially if – they are unable to make money in the face of sustained civil liberties.” – Rick Falkvinge
I’m a web developer, I have to deal with uncompliance to ever-changing protocols and standards. Plus, I have to make software that’s idiot-proof or as people call it, with good user experience. Would it be more convenient for me if there was enforcement over protocols and standards? Or maybe we should train the users, restrain from using the internet without a valid “webuser-license”. Yes, it would be convenient for me. But it would be disastrous for progress.
Come on, you wrote a book that was read by a LOT of people, you should feel good about that. People will respect you and admire you. Are telling me you’d rather that people wouldn’t download your book, and only the few people that bought it would appreciate your talent and effort? How would I feel if I had spend 6 months of my life (or more for the matter) writing something that so many people would enjoy reading to the point of my ideas inside so many people’s heads — I’d feel pretty f’ing good about myself.
I read this post, and I start thinking, why do you write your books? Is it just for the money? Or the new york times ranks?
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#### 2 – What is cheating for you, might not be cheating for me
There’s something you’re not taking into account.
As you say it in your own book, dishonesty is about convincing yourself that somehow what you did is right. So, it is NOT dishonesty if you don’t think its wrong at all before you even think of doing it, which I honestly believe it was the case for 99% of the people who downloaded your books.
Honesty is about is about not stretching your morals, your own, not someone else’s. If the action is already within the individual’s morals, then it might be illegal, it might be considered cheating by someone else, but not for the person who did it.
You really think that someone who disagrees with the law confesses breaking it they will have a clean start? Of course not, if they respect themselves, they should be proud of it.
Got it.
Now it is illegal, which is not necessarily immoral. Here in the United States especially where our lawmakers have no morals, or at least not any good morals, one could argue it’s your civic duty to ignore they’re immoral laws. It’s not like they even bother to follow they’re own laws after all.
I would argue that we go back to the original American copywrite law which was based on good sense, and pitch the current version which is based on what Disney wants.
Your argument about libraries is troubling, as libraries will lend the same book out indefinitely, as long as it holds up, is not lost or stolen, etc. Are you saying that artificial and unnessasary scarcity in a medium without scarcity is an efficient use of the medium? Perhaps you should issue your own electronic edition on a value added service such as Amazon or another book monger. Or in the case of music a song is basically an advertisement which is givin away free all the time on the radio, some times the record companies even bribe Clear Channel to play the same song so many times your ears start to bleed.
Now I have actually bought a book I downloaded as it was rare and out of print, and when another edition was printed after being out of print for over 39 years I bought a copy for a reasonable price.
Is it because it is illegal? Some may argue that the law is not correct in this case.
Is it because you don’t pay the author? Some may argue that knowledge is important for it’s own sake and if you want money for it it is your responsibility to guard it and you should not be assisted by the government by having a monopoly. Also suppose I buy your book and then decide to have public readings on it? After all I can do whatever I want with the stuff I bought right?
Authors and creators using copyright laws, that in effect violates everybody elses just property rights in preventing people from using their property (computer, scanner, internet connection) in ways that does not harm anyone else. You losing a profit opportunity is not harm by any definition (that is just bad marketing on your part. That said, I truely belive you will profit from the downloading). Violating other people like that with a bad law in hand is truely dishonest, and it is being rationalised by a lot of people every day – even you.
I am aware that this could also be considered a rationalisation on my part in favor of illegal downloading. Legal and immoral is not the same.
On the other hand, if I spent that time making art that spoke to me and that I wanted to share, I’d feel a little differently about the fact that somebody was willing to take the effort to download my stuff, even illegally.
If every musician felt the way the author of this blog does, we’d have velvet ropes and bouncers collecting cover before you could hear a street musician – after all, listening is STEALING!
In the Netherlands bicycles can turn right jumping a red light, by law, because everyone did it, so it was made legal. Everyone did it, because it made sense to them.
We’re all nicely intellectually philosophizing about the pros and cons, but we’re representing a minority vote. The one contribution that represents the masses is the one that said “stop illegal downloads?, you’re an ass”.
I for one decided 10 years ago to give away the fruits of my intellectual labour. I wrote some software, and made it Open Source. A while ago I passed the million downloads. I sometimes dream about having asked a dollar per download would have made me a millionaire, but Dan told me that there’s a big difference between free and a penny, so it remains a day dream. Nevertheless, I can only say that I’ve benefited from my decision ten years ago. And I made that decision at the time, because I was inspired by the ones who had gone before me, and I felt indebted.
Well done.
A. Stealing a DVD from the store (I get this is wrong, but is it a violation of copyright law?).
B. Donating a DVD to the public library.
C. Donating a DVD to a company library that charges for its use.
D. Borrowing a DVD from the library.
E. Renting a DVD from the private company library.
F. Selling a DVD at a yard sale.
G. Borrowing a DVD from a neighbor.
H. Lending a DVD to a neighbor.
I. Downloading the DVD to a USB drive of a neighbor who promises to delete it after viewing.
J. Downloading a copy of a DVD from the Internet (from an “illegal site”) of a DVD that you owned but was damaged beyond use.
K. Buying a DVD, watching it, then giving it as a gift.
L. Swapping DVDs at a swap meet.
M. Swapping DVDs in an on-line marketplace.
N. Copying your DVD to your harddrive then throwing it away.
O. Renting a DVD from a DVD store.
P. Renting a DVD from Netflix.
Q. Showing a DVD at your house with 20 friends over to enjoy your home theater system.
R. Showing a DVD at your house as you wait for everyone to show up for a tupperware party.
S. Showing a DVD at your house during an official company party you are putting on for your employees.
T. Clipping a part of a scene from a DVD to use in your YouTube video–of course, you give credit in the end.
The text of the law is black and white–but real life is just varying shades of grey. Let the rationalization continue!!
The concepts of property and theft are as old as civilization itself, and perhaps older. I would argue, however, the internet downloading does not fit into the category of traditional theft and that knowledge and art are very different from purely physical mediums.
By downloading a digital file, a pirate is not depriving another person of that file, they are instead making an exact copy of it. You may have seen the anti-piracy ad that says “You Wouldn’t Steal A Car,” but very few people would take up issue with the ability to copy their neighbor’s vehicle if there were no clear victims of such a theft.
So, instead of theft we are dealing with something quite different. Intellectual property cannot be stolen but the profits of a potential sale of that product can be deprived. This is where things get very muddled, because the intentions of the consumer to buy or not buy a product are almost impossible to ascertain. But even supposing we had a quantum computer that could determine lost profits as the result pirating (think Minority Report), the real question of this entire situation would still remain unanswered: should a creator of intellectual property be compensated?
You phrased your question to the college student in terms of investment, years of your life in exchange for this non-physical good. While certainly pirating will not make your already published books scarce, it seems your are implying that too much copying could dissuade authors and musicians from publishing material in the future. Given the legalization of copying previously protected works, there might be a notable drop in artistic and intellectual materials, though this might not be such a bad thing. Many of mankind’s greatest artists and thinkers were not fueled by financial compensation. While I might understand that you personally invested in hopes to reap financial benefits from you book, continual shift away from monetary compensation for knowledge represents one of the many reasons your investment’s return was not guaranteed. The IP system is so far removed from traditional fairness that making such an appeal will not (and has not) resounded with the public.
Perhaps making all intellectual material available for public use is nearly a Pareto solution. The daily lives of consumers are enriched for no cost while the producers of those materials suffer no loss of actual capital. This issue of perceived loss of potential returns is only a legal construct and would essentially disappear after those protections were removed.
Would this mean authors might have to do speaking tours to make ends meet? Probably. Would this mean musicians would rely on live shows? Yes, or they could get endorsed. With websites like kickstarter and music mixing programs like PCDJ DEX, the need for middlemen is quickly eroding away. As technology advances so must our understanding of intellectual property ownership.
I am thinking of all the library book borrowing I’ve done- wondering what’s it done to other dimensions of my life.
Could you reveal positive effects in experimental conditions where our usual loaning practices are suspended?
I think it would be interesting to look into how many of those downloads were from places where your book is not available in soft copy form? I pay for my audiobooks, but have listened to illegally downloaded ones for free in one circumstance. The first three books of the series were available via audible in my country. The rest of the series were not, because of someone refusing someone else rights somewhere along the way. I would have liked to give that author money, but the option wasn’t there.
Of course, the same is true for book publishers and libraries. Buy it or borrow it? That choice has been available for decades and, probably, will continue to be. Since most of us have no more interest in owning a book collection, borrowing the material long enough to read it makes more sense than owning great art when you can find a JPG of the same work and display it on every computer screen in your home.
Buying a book, music, or art is more of an act of respect or generosity than a moral obligation. Most of the music I hear on the radio is material I’d rather never suffered. Most books are a waste of library space, costing me tax money. Most art belongs in those “starving artist” sales at the usual 4-for-$1 rate. The more I think about it the more I believe that the only material that deserves legal protection is material that has not been advertised on any major media.
I do, by the way, have a large collection of CDs and do, occasionally, buy music on-line. I also avoid listening to commercial radio and have since Reagan eliminated the Fairness Act. I patronize my library, but own a few books because they have been benchmarks of my life. Like most musicians, I don’t have much sympathy for record labels.
People don’t illegally download because they just like breaking the law. They do it for reasons like convenience and low cost. If I can download an author’s entire body of work with one click for free, versus going to Amazon and paying $12 per Kindle book, it’s a no-brainer. If you want to stop illegal downloading, forget morality and make it easier for people to access content, at a price they’re willing to pay.
I subscribe to Netflix and Audible, and those are two companies that I think are heading in the right direction. I’m willing to pay a monthly fee to Netflix for access to their content — I can browse their movies and shows and sample things. If I had to pay for each item, I wouldn’t bother, but paying one fee for total access gives me convenience and choice, which I am willing to pay for. Audible is less progressive in this way, but still, paying a monthly fee for access to their library is something I’m willing to do. If Netflix offered a wider selection, and Audible adopted an all-you-can-eat scheme for a reasonable price, I wouldn’t even be tempted to illegally download movies, TV shows or audiobooks.
As for ebooks, if there were a Netflix type service for those (which there sort of is, with public library ebook lending and Kindle Lending Library, but I don’t use either because one is a pain in the ass and the other requires a device I don’t own or want), or the price was significantly lowered, I wouldn’t feel tempted to download those, either. When Amazon starts selling all of their Kindle ebooks for $2 or less, I’ll never not pay for an ebook again. (As it is, I don’t often find a Kindle book I want at that price point, but when I do, I buy it.)
And though many aren’t aware of these particulars, they do have a sense that an enormous cost has been removed from the ledgers of publishing companies. And yet these publishers have colluded in making e-books sometimes even more expensive than books in print. This is monumentally stupid, and yet completely human. It’s normal to be grasping and illogical. At some point (and there are a number of teams out there currently working on the details) these books will be priced cheaply – very cheaply. They will sell like hotcakes and nobody will be stealing the fruits of anyone’s labor. Priced at less than dollar, publishers will make books available to the world. They will sell umpteen million copies of good books and get reasonable returns even for their mistakes. But the person who slaves away and writes a good book will make plenty of money and so will the editors, illustrators, researchers, translators, proofreaders, etc.
In less than five years information will become nearly-free, and will be so because everyone will be gobbling up more of it than ever before – yes, people will be spending more, per capita, than they would if prices stay as they are. And that, in the end, is what will increase the quality and quantity of information. Nearly-free is better than free because everyone also knows, intuitively, that there is no free lunch. We’re hardwired to spot the cheaters.
I hate to say it but what you culture is free folks are all advocating is digital maoism. This will end very badly.
As to your perspectives, acknowledging the insights from professor Ariely, you must admit that having 1/3 of your income come from monetization of past creative works gives you a particular interest in this debate. And you cannot fairly claim to fully respect the interests of others with different positions. All of us are susceptible to conflict of interest.
I happen to be a musician younger than you who did not live as much of my life in the pre-internet economy. But I am old enough to have known what it was like. Over many years, I adjusted my perspectives from trying to be defensive like you and wanting to be able to make a career the way you have to now wanting to figure out how to develop a new economic model where my income as a musician doesn’t rely on artificial scarcity and reduction of access and sharing. I’ve come to realize how bad artificial scarcity is for society. I do not believe that the ends justify the means. It is selfish of me to want a successful income as a musician if I do so in a way that is otherwise a detrminent to a free society. I think I’ve figured out a better system actually, and it is not at all maoist. I’ll be announcing my new funding institution sometime in the next several months.
Cheers
You can read my thoughts here:
http://blog.wolftune.com/2008/06/rational-view-of-copyright.html
Put quite simply, I cannot relate to people who simply argue that they deserve their wealth. I see a world full of poverty and injustice. The idea that I ought to be wealthy and continue my music career seems pretty indulgent. I care more about figuring out how to do work that is meaningful to society rather than how to just have a good income. But I’d like to live in a world where I can actually afford to make part or a lot of my contribution through music and media. So I think we need to solve this dilemma. I also think strong copyright restrictions are NOT the solution, period. But I have a solution. I’m working on it. Contact me if you really want to know more or get involved.
In an earlier response to another thread participant you wrote, “Copying media isn’t stealing, it’s FREELOADING.” That is absolutely false. To “freeload” is to live off of the generosity of another. Downloading an already free-to-download song without any contribution to its owner is a form of freeloading. Downloading a song that is not legally free is, under current laws, thievery. The difference is that the former relies on the permission and generosity of others while the latter is accomplished with neither.
I write for a living. That is, I sell written guidance in my fields of expertise. Expertise that was hard earned over the last couple of decades. I don’t earn an income from ads online or in print–a clear conflict of interest since I do not and cannot endorse specific vendor’s products and services. Nor do I use my written work to market consulting services–though I am on occasion asked to engage in additional consulting. And I refuse to use the annoyingly common bait tactic of providing just enough free content (e.g. ambiguous or incomplete guidance) to entice prospects to contact me so I can sell them costly 1-on-1 services.
The amount my clients pay for insight that can otherwise only be earned through many years of experience is a very tiny fraction of what it would have cost them to obtain in time, lost opportunity and resources–or by engaging a competitor for “free content” that then requires paid consulting services to deliver any real value. And it’s significantly less than they would spend to engage me 1-on-1.
So, while I appreciate and respect your desire to make your own content freely available as a contribution to society, I also believe that is up to you to decide as the content creator/owner. Beyond fair use, consumers should have no legal basis on which to make that decision for you.
I appreciate your thoughts. If we accept that legal does not necessarily mean ethical, then the legal difference in copying is irrelevant to the overall discussion of right and wrong. You can add your requirement of including permission to freeload in the definition of “freeloading” but that’s not how I mean it or how it is usually used. We’re trying to communicate here, so understand what I mean. When people copy files without contributing anything, the only thing that they take away from the author is the power and control that the author legally has to stop copying. If you want to play with semantics, you can say, “you stole my control over copying” but that’s a stretch of the language. The economic issue, the real ethical issue here, is freeloading. The problem is that some people are chipping in and others are not. If that issue were solved, we would no longer be having this debate. Therefore, we aren’t actually concerned about theft, we are concerned about freeloading. And to bring it toward the way you want to see it: the problem is ILLEGAL freeloading without permission!
Your personal definition is neither the accepted definition nor the typical use of the word except perhaps by people who wish not to view themselves as thieves. That you’ve been using “freeloading” to describe what is clearly theft simply tells me you’ve been misusing the word. Frankly, I’m surprised you’re not referring to it as “liberating” information.
You speak as if some consumers are simply helping themselves to resources already freely available to everyone/anyone without the need to “chip in”. No, they’re taking the resources– resources that aren’t freely available except through unauthorized means–and benefitting from those resources without paying for use as others do.
If you genuinely have an interest in accomplishing your vision you first need to quit diminishing theft by attempting to recast it as something less severe. Otherwise content creators, owners and other contributors who rely on their works to make a living will never take you seriously.
Here’s the philosophical test-question to ponder to continue productive discussion: what if every single illegal downloader made a financial contribution to authors and publishers equal to the amount had that bought a legal copy?
Would there still be a problem? Or would most of us accept the validity of any such problems?
This all seems to me to be about money, not about creative control or legality. So the only actual problem is freeloading and it is just incidental that the freeloading is illegal.
I did write “benefiting from those resources without paying for use as others do” but you have taken it out of context have you not?
That statement was placed at the end of a paragraph in which I describe the difference between taking resources made available at no explicit cost, and taking resources which are not free for the taking.
A great example of the difference can be found at the WSJ. Some of the content is free to read (though not free to repurpose) and the remainder requires a paid subscription. If I read the free content without contributing in any way to the WSJ, effectively I am freeloading off of the company’s work at the company’s expense, not my own. I am taking advantage of the company’s generosity…providing some content at no cost to readers. If, however, I find a way to access/share the company’s subscription content without actually buying a subscription, I am stealing. There’s no doubt about it.
I’m not arguing that copyright is good for society. I don’t like most of what it represents. However, the answer isn’t to expect content producers to give away their work and find some other way to make a living (i.e. through advertising, merchandising, etc…). If I wanted a job on top of my job, I’d get a second job.
If I watch a pirated copy of a movie I’m not paying anyone in exchange for the opportunity to enjoy myself for a couple of hours (or to wish I’d not wasted the time). We could say that is simply unauthorized access to the movie, but that effectively minimizes my actions. It’s theft. I walked away with an enjoyable experience.
If I break into an amusement park and ride the rides for a few hours technically I’m not stealing anything tangible. That much is true. I might be charged with vandalism or breaking and entering, but probably not theft…largely because courts have difficulty addressing intangibles which are difficult to quantify.
If I somehow find a way to “audit” a seminar or class without paying for it, again I am stealing–this time knowledge–though it is probably unlikely I’d ever be charged with theft.
Whatever term society chooses to use in these discussions, it should not minimize that stealing intangibles is no different than stealing physical goods, even if it “feels” different.
This gets exactly at the point, and you show exactly how wrong you are here. Who in this situation is being deprived of enjoyment, insight or enrichment?? Stealing and theft do NOT refer to unapproved access to things, they refer specifically to depriving others of things. If there is no deprivation, there is no theft, period, by all common definitions of these words. Mostly we debate ideas like deprivation of control or of income, and that’s a stretch to call stealing but is a rational debate anyway. Your use here is so metaphorical that it can be simply dismissed as being “not literally true.” And I’m fine with your phrase if you acknowledge this qualification. The reason we ought not to redefine stealing to cover things that do not involve deprivation is that it loses sight of the fact that actual stealing as we know it, i.e. depriving others, is certainly a much more serious crime than anything involving copyright — to the point of being incomparable. And it isn’t just about tangible things, it’s about deprivation. Plaigiarism is a form of stealing because it involves me gaining in a way that deprives you of credit. Plaigiairism is stealing. Copying is not. Trying to insist that copying is stealing is a lack of respect for the seriousness of real theft.
Lessig’s non-rivalrous argument fails here. He argues that enjoyment of the copy does not prevent enjoyment of the original. However, he glosses over the fact that ownership of the original is not for enjoyment, but for income. Moviemakers don’t make films simply for their own enjoyment of the finished product. Yes, copies of the film don’t deprive them of enjoyment, but illegally obtained copies do deprive them of income. Enjoyment (and other intangibles) is the benefit experienced by the user, whether obtained legally or not.
We both agree that figuring out how to actually fund content creation is important. You think the law is just to give creators exclusive copyright and other controls to achieve this. I believe that the balance of what is in the best interest of the general public and society overall is definitely less copyright restrictions. I believe that funding is the only justification for giving creators this control and otherwise this control is bad for society. I believe that if we can figure out alternate funding methods, then we can eliminate copyright restrictions. I believe that illegal access even in the minority of cases where it definitely displaces payment and thus is theft is theft of control and payment that may not be morally warranted for the creator to have in the first place. I believe that if there were no funding concerns, for example if all copyright violators sent a payment to creators and publishers anyway, you would have no further moral basis to argue for control and restrictions. So if I am successful in creating a new funding mechanism for media, it will solve the only legitimate problem here.
I don’t believe it is society’s place to “give” content creator’s rights to their own content. Content creators put in the effort to create their works and have the right to decide how, when and where that content is used, and at what cost. Frankly, some content creators are humanitarians and more generous with their contributions while others are not.
You write as if society is entitled to one’s work. It’s not. Do I wish to see people who cannot afford to buy art/music/books gain access to as much content as possible? Absolutely. It would do wonders for society as a whole. Do I believe we should trample on the rights of content creators to accomplish that mission? No, I do not. If a content creator is not feeling generous and wishes to be paid for anything related to his content, well, it’s his decision. If that decision hurts his public reputation and income because the public wants free stuff, well, that’s the way the ball bounces. If he prefers to make a portion of his work freely available to the world, it’s also his decision.
If you can find alternative methods of funding, that might go a long way toward helping free up content that might not otherwise be legally available to the masses. I wish you the best of luck with that.
As for funding concerns being “the only legitimate problem” I suggest that it is a challenge, yes, but not the problem. The problem is consumers with a warped sense of entitlement who expect something for nothing (except when it comes to their own effort). Changing their attitude would be far more difficult than simply finding a way to give something back to content creators for their continued efforts.
Ah, very good. You have clarified the other part of our disagreement. This idea you have about creators having natural rights… it is completely a fabrication of 20th century media technology. The vast majority of societies do not recognize such rights, and neither does the U.S. Constitution. The right to credit, i.e. against plagiarism, is more clear.
Really, your belief that content creators naturally get these rights but that it is *not* the natural right of people to share ideas once they know them, to copy things for others… Your whole premise is tenuous. I’m in no position to simply tell you that you are wrong, but I can say this: there are certain interests, namely big media companies, who have pushed this idea in recent decades and it really otherwise wasn’t part of our thoughts about rights. Furthermore, if we want to discuss the ethics and philosophy of it, you must accept some burden of showing that this supposed right makes any sense.
I believe that once I share my ideas with others, I have absolutely no natural right to stop others from modifying, sharing, or doing whatever with the ideas except they should give me due credit as a source. On the contrary, it is my natural right to share any ideas I learn with others. Sharing is the natural right here.
Again, the U.S. Constitution is on my side, and yes this means that our laws that veer toward your interpretation appear to be unconstitutional.
Respectfully,
Aaron
If I were to suggest that an individual has a natural right to do what he wants with a physical sculpture or chair that he created with his mind and hands… to decide who can enjoy viewing it and using it, and how much it might cost should he decide to sell it, who would disagree with me? Few people. Even if a technology existed that could instantly and effortlessly create an exact replica of the finished piece, I assert that the creator has a natural right to decide what happens with the copies, including giving them away for free or making them available for purchase. And, I believe the same applies to digitally born or reproduced creations.
Certainly no government or society need bestow that right on us. In fact, no government or society should ever be given such authority, except perhaps the authority to protect such rights from encroachment and abuse.
Watch this: https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_ridley_when_ideas_have_sex.html
Instead of everyone selfishly hoarding their ideas, if we have a society where ideas are open to everyone, then the chair-maker gets to use everyone else’s ideas too. It’s a fair deal. Your maker-control world is completely untenable. Sorry to be so blunt (and I don’t mean to be disrespectful or personal), but I really believe your view is that far off.
I advocate no such thing. Your comment departs from a discussion of copyright and crosses over into yet another murky world of patents, for which I have a remarkably different opinion.
Copyright protects the expression of an idea, but not the idea itself. Patents protect the idea. I’m not a fan of patents.
A great example of this might be a chair craftsman who made his living building and selling chairs of his own design. He retires and decides to write and sell a book about building chairs that imparts his wisdom of the last 40 years.
You are free to make your own chairs and even write your own book about chair making. You can even borrow his book from the library and learn from his wisdom at no direct cost to you. Or perhaps find free online resources where other craftsmen have freely exchanged ideas about chair design and construction. Otherwise, you should not feel free to obtain a copy of his chair making book without paying for it. And if you copy and sell his chair design as you suggest in the excerpt above…well that’s a patent issue, not a copyright issue. And that’s a whole different discussion.
It’s not a black an white world Aaron. I am certain neither of us will ever be completely satisfied with the way it operates…whether copyright, trademark or patent.
The copyright bargain is a balance between trying to figure out what is just for creators so that we are fairly treated and have continued motivation to keep creating but so that the general public can flexibly access, use, modify, and share things. The issue of copyright is finding the right balance for the best overall interests of everyone. The question is what amount of control achieves the best balance. It is an open question, but a productive discussion shouldn’t start by presuming that creators have full control by default. The default is that whoever you are, creator or reader, you do whatever you feel like doing with whatever objects and ideas you have. When your actions cause problems for others, then we work to figure out a balance that is fair. There’s no basis to start with the default that readers cannot copy or modify or share. If we are to restrict reader’s copyright, we must do so because we have just reason, such as motivating or compensating creators.
Yes, we are definitely in agreement about patents. I believe there are many ways to express, refine and improve upon ideas and no one individual should have the right to restrict others from that pursuit. Many of the patents granted in the past couple of decades are broad, ambiguous and counterproductive.
News/ Media and book’s content publishers have been hurt the most, other content publishers have changed their business model think TV/ Movies and Music.
Music artists now basically are loss leaders through digital downloads, yes they still sell CD’s music through iTunes all money is made through live music gigs and artists branching out to merchandising themselves. That why live nation structure big deals around proven artists and take a big cut of their live gigs. You can now get last.fm and Spotify, I get nearly 90% of all music I want through Spotify for free and could download music for £9 per month.
Think about Netflix, Lovefilm and Apple film now on subscription services that feed back a small amount to content publishers. They still have major issues because of the gap between the cinema and DVD/ Blueray that will be fixed as soon as bandwidth improves and native cable companies do something.
Now as an author your job is to maximize your expected value of your content. What would happen if you only provided your book in digital form and free? Could that lead to 500k downloads? And be your loss leading strategy for doing more paid speaking gigs or could you start to build an audience for book two? What happens if you charged $1/ $2 or $5 for your books? Creating the right mix of the revenue from your book and the revenue from other sources will be hard but you can split test prices, i.e start with higher prices and slowly cut to adjust to demand or think pre sales pricing.
Excluding established authors, books that really exceeded sales expectations usually either had hugely popular content or an author that has a captivated audience and hit tipping point (Gladwellesque). Think of books with great content in a niche community like Born to Run or Moonwalking with Einstein or to someone who has a very captive audience Tim Ferriss and the Four hour work week (I’ve excluded fiction). If you have a captive audience you might be able to create demand to value your content and shell out $X amount. The other point is maybe your information is vital for people and you’re the only with it but the sounds of it your book does neither, it’s really a simple supply demand dynamics of a free market the soon content publishers realise the game has changed and to find out ways to maximise their expected value. You might say well no one well then one will produce good content, then supply will decrease and price will increase.
I can see how you could think I’m discounting people’s behaviour as they’ve definitely been desensitised to illegally downloading books but that’s on you to manage the market dynamics, your ‘solution’ is pretty naive.
Now, that’s an interesting take. I’ll remember to use it the next time a security guard grabs me for shoplifting. Walmart’s inventory “may be well worth nothing”!
So if enough of us decided to make shoplifting from Walmart legal, it would be. It might be unlikely, it might have significant negative consequences that deter us from wanting to do it. But it could easily be done with enough support.
This is true for real and personal property, but the customs and laws concerning them developed organically, without much awareness of their underlying nature. Copyright came along later, and its utilitarian nature is much more clear. But they’re all the same sort of thing.
I like to look at digital piracy from the more pragmatic perspective of what’s easier for most people to do.
I believe that streaming services like Netflix/Amazon Prime (for video) and Spotify(for music) provide an excellent model that ensures artists and creators are compensated for their work and also happen to be much easier than pirating digital media for users.
What if there was a similar service for ebooks, where authors are payed royalties based off of the number of times their work is read by subscribers paying a monthly fee to gain access to the content?I know I’d be willing to pay at least as much as I do for cable for such a service if it allowed me access to basically every book ever published. I’m not sure how large of a pot that would create for royalties, but hopefully it would be sufficiently large that most authors would feel fairly compensated.
The real problem that needs to be solved is what level of monthly pricing for streaming services like Netflix and Spotify and my hypothetical “every book ever” library service from Amazon would be sufficient that creators are fairly compensated for their work yet isn’t so high that it discourages most people from paying the monthly fee.
I’d be willing to pay that, or maybe double. $2 for a movie, a bit less for an album.
Prices are just way too high, and don’t reflect the huge discount that should have come with essentially-free digital distribution.
the thing is a lot more complicated than you may think. In the first place, it may well be that Dan gets only 2 Dollars per book. But this book was not only produced by himself, but by a publishing company with many poeple who shared the labor: editors, correctors, marketing people, and, in case of the printed edition, by all the pople who are involved in printing and selling the copies. Those together get the lion share, about 90 percent of the turnover. You can not sell a professionally produced book at the sum that is going to the author.
But with the ebook it gets even more complicated. The publisher actually could offer it for less than it actually costs – but not for 2 Dollars, for all the people involved with the production who must be paid. But in the moment, if publishers would start to sell all new ebooks at, say 4 or 5 Dollars, that would be the “kill” for book stores, who would not be able to compete, and, who right now, still sell the majority of books. So the ebook prizes are right now cross-subsidizing the print eco-system. It is a totally different thing if writers like myself self-publish ebooks. We can sell them for, say, 3 Dollars and earn as much per sale as we would get from the publisher if it were printed copys: No costly in-betweens. And a lot of people like myself are starting to do this. Amazon opened the gates with its visionary self publishing system. Authors who have out of print books or books they have the ebook rights for can now have them available for minimum cost. This has the effect that the so called “back list” ist exploding at Amazon. You can get hundreds of thousands of older titles each for a few dollars. Which does not prevent the downloaders from bootlegging these cheap books. So your price argument only goes so far. And in the end, if you find the books to expensive, this does not give you the right to “steal” them from the internet. Or dou you feel yourself entitled to steal Prada bags, because they are too expensive?
What they fail to consider is the expertise, experience, talent etc required to create the art, song, book etc, and more importantly they all but completely ignore the value they experience from these products.
We’re paying for the value received from reading the book, viewing the art and listening to the music. The value of the format in which it is sold is a secondary source of value in addition to the value of the content. That value may change, but the value of the content remains.
Nevermind that the $29.99 book about software development is a steal compared to classes that might cost 100x as much. Nevermind that it might have helped them with their latest development project, or helped them to not get laid off because they’ve failed to keep their skills up to date. If it’s digital, they want it for $1.99 as if the real value of the content of the book has somehow changed simply because it’s in electronic form, not printed. Only the value of the format has changed, not the content, regardless how “easy” it is to create and distribute digital copies.
Unfortunately consumer perception of value (and consequently what they are willing to pay) is warped by factors unrelated to the actual value/utility they derive from the goods. Consumers are, more often than not, common lay people who consider only the time and effort put into the product/service as a measure of its value. Dan’s old post about Locksmiths is a great example: http://danariely.com/2010/12/15/locksmiths/
I’ve already indicated in an earlier response that I’m not a fan of today’s copyright laws, and clearly we need to find a workable solution. However, as long as consumers continue to drive the market with their warped sense of value, we’ll continue to struggle to make a decent living from our work. Andrew might believe we’re all out to “maximize the expected value of our content” but many of us simply want to do what we enjoy and make a decent living at it.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/09/07/rushkoff.jobs.obsolete/index.html
And that was just the first attempt. What if we go even deeper?
1. If it were up to you to implement, would you have a timeframe in which people can confess, or more of a one time “get out of jail free card” that people can use during their lifetime, or something totally different?
2. What would there be to stop people from just using this as an excuse to download as much free music as possible, and then just confess right before they have to confess, thereby getting a lot more music for free?
3. What if they confess, are allowed to keep their music, and then continue to download illegally? Do you think that this would help to shift the thoughts of those people that what they are doing as wrong?
Thank you for the post! This is an area that I am definitely interested in for my side business. It also touches upon my love for tackling a difficult moral problem to solve practically.
Find amusing that the author start up front by saying this is an illegal activity…
The comparison made with the bi-racial couple is delicious, I should add gay couples, etc.
Maybe one day we would be in the same position in relation to «ilegall» downloads, it’s just a matter of perspective, just try go to Germany or Swenden with that same speech to see if you can «sit anyone down» without reply…
If you enjoy it, if you learn from it, if you are personally enriched by it, even after reading it just once, have you not benefited from it? Have you not incorporated the author’s wisdom/opinion/expertise/experience/creativity into your own? Perhaps even walk away with a different outlook on–or validation of your opinions about–music, art, society, government, history, medicine, healthcare, fantasy etc.
Granted there are some books I wish I’d never bought, but then there are automobiles and sofas and televisions I wish I’d never bought as well. Not everything is guaranteed to fulfill our expectations of and anticipation of value. When it fails, we simply don’t buy that brand again, or buy that author’s work.
But to say that a book isn’t worth, say, $8.99 or even $29.99…I ask myself what it would have taken for me to otherwise create/gain the insight/value I obtained from simply reading a book or listening to the song. I pay exclusively for the perceived value of the content.
People are not rational when it comes to judging value. Things are relative and emotional and complex. It is completely unrealistic to try to prescribe some logical way of assigning value. Whatever weird things people think, such as how many times they will read a book, it’s all part of how people think. And it’s not gonna change. People will never be the mythical rational beings assumed by traditional economics.
Some people will claim prices are too high and therefore they have no choice but to illegally download content unless the price comes down to a level they can afford. To me it’s the equivalent of telling an automobile dealer that you had no choice but to take one of their cars because it’s beyond your budget and you’re somehow entitled to use it anyway unless the dealer drops pricing to a level more in alignment with your perception of how much it is worth.
Sadly, too many consumers are prepared to step on whomever they need to in order to get what they want as cheaply as possible so long as it doesn’t negatively affect them personally. Whether that means downloading a movie rather than buying or renting it, or buying an inexpensive article of clothing when they know it’s likely made by some ten year old in a sweatshop. After all, who cares? It’s not their livelihood or their child, right?
Authors and libraries have existed and authors still made some money. I think it is pretty stupid to devote your time to writing about dishonesty and expect anyone to pay for it. I think your time would be better suited to learning some skills that would put food on your table. If you can get paid money to write about subjects such as dishonesty that is great but a dishonest act in itself since you has nothing on dishonesty that is yours alone. Look at the world and you have to be aware of the fact theft is the normal now.
I know that I would prefer if books, music,art were made by people having fun rather than to get famous and rich.
Maybe it is the end of the arts for profit. Kind of like the locomotive industry went to hell. Sure there are differences but there is no theft since you still have what you wrote.
You made the mistake of thinking you controlled it once digitized and alowed online- poof you lost control.
Clearly you did not know enough about dishonesty to have written a book. I would not devote years of effort towards anything so dishonest.
Get real it is not theft if you have what you started with.
If I copy for personal consumption there has not been theft You cannot prove I would have bought it if you had not been so careless in allowing me my free copy. I do not intend to ever pay for media. I would do without. I feel my viewpoint saner than yours. I do not consider making a copy the same thing as theft because it is not theft. You lost nothing. I would be stupid to pay for something I can get free.The disillusion of dishonest people.-hehe
Here’s the deal for me–sorry if I’m repeating something that appeared in the comments.
In the past I hardly ever bought books when they were printed.
Now I download what I want. When I find an author I like and have freeloaded two or three of his books, I buy something.
As you point out; here there are two rationalizations. i.e. 1) I wouldn’t buy them anyway if I couldn’t download them. 2) I can “pay back” the author by buying one out of 3 books (that’s you too).
That’s the best I can do.
There’s another factor involved. The market isn’t pricing books correctly. As as book thief I know there is a price where I would pay for everything just to feel straight with myself. I bet most people who read books are smart enough to know we’re cheating. For me the price is about $2.99.
And more and more people would like to find out more stuff that they might have heard about in their youth, in school or through family and friends.
Of course, if they are still used to the old way, they will prefer proper hardcover books, because (to me, and possibly most other people) they are much more relaxing to read, because you don’t have to stare at a computer monitor for hours on end. (And if a book is really interesting, then that is what is bound to happen).
But sometimes living in the “wrong” country can make it hard to find certain books, especially if they are in a foreign language. Fact is that a book that was released in 2011 (which was a mere year ago, at least according to my calendar) was labelled as “antique” and thus not be available here anymore.
Then you automatically turn to the web, usually ebay, for help, sometimes you can be lucky, sometimes you’ve just been all out of luck in terms of finding what you want. (Using ebay does not make me happy though, since I do want the benefits from the book that i buy to go to the author of the book, because they are the ones that deserve it). The book I was looking for was also so exclusive and you could say elusive too, that even the dark sites and places did not even know about its existence and thus could not even be found by any legal or illegal means here. (I’ve since contacted several places for it, and “might” be lucky enough to have a definite answer whether I can or can not get it within the next “20 days”).
I’m one of those people that prefer real-life books over electronic versions, and the only “e-book” I ever read was one which was made available for free download by the writers, and believe it or not, because I liked it so much, I bought the hardcover version of it in our local store a few days later. To enjoy the full capacity of the book. (Another advantage that real books have are the pictures in them, which explain far better than any words what has happened in the story).
But with a salary of less than $100/month that I had back then, the prospect of buying books was the norm. While I bought some older books from fairs, buying new books was out of my reach. Was it wrong? Yes. Would I do it again? Yes, without a doubt. I downloaded and read books that otherwise would have cost me thousands of dollars, or at that time years of hard work.
The funny thing is that today I live off my intellectual property and my content is copied all over the internet, sometimes translated without the source. Most of the time I do not bother, while sometimes when I feel it was done with malicious intent, I drop an email to the website copying my work.
Ok, I’m being facetious. But, increasingly, the output of America is knowledge goods and intellectual property. We buy our household goods from China, which creates jobs in China. People in China (and other countries) downloads our movies, our software and knocks off our product designs (that are, of course, made in China). This is an issue that will increasingly effect our standard of living.
Sites that offer unauthorized free file sharing are for-profit businesses that operate and profit at the expense of others. This is the disconnect that invalidates all the so-called justifications that the proponents of online piracy proclaim. It is not some utopian revolution created by technology.
Will Buckley, founder, FarePlay
Whats your definition of utopian?
You don’t get it because you don’t want to get it.
There is no theft if nothing is stolen. Copy is not theft.
Your problem is you think it would be awful if everything was free.
Artist and musicians might have to get real jobs to continue their art and music which should be considered a hobby not a career.
Fareplay sounds like a nightmare of candles and naked hipsters pissed off they are not getting paid.
No one but the user sets value.
Just get prepared when people start to illegaly download 3D copyrighted objects to print at their house in their 3D plastic printer.
I prefer Richard Stallman’s solution to the copyright problem.
This young author should spend more time thinking about the true ethics of publication.
MikethePhilosopher
Your article is uninspired considering you wrote a book on dishonesty.
IP is illegally downloaded because the connection to the author is largely null and void, thus the moral aspect is largely non-existent.
If your book was only available through you, it wouldn’t be illegally downloaded. Nor would you have the reach you have through a publisher that makes the book available through countless distrib. channels.
You mention that your publisher shut down the illegal downloads. Consider showing your initiative and becoming personally involved in the communities where your book is read.
Because _you have chosen_ to depersonalize the connection
to your readers, by employing the leverage that impersonal agents, eg. publishers, distributors, stores can provide,
you have afforded your readers the opportunity to respond in kind, and also depersonalize and devalue their connection to you.
This is why illegal downloads occur. For the same reason
Obama can be awarded a Nobel Peace Prize while drone operators play video games with people’s lives.
I’m not condoning illegal downloads, although an even greater issue is the IP theft that companies are conducting on public property and individuals’ IP.
Obviously, given your rather uninspired article I won’t buy nor download your book.
/
I have been critical of the assumptions he made in this post. I do not accept the whole idea of “intellectual property” and I know that copying is not theft. And I also strongly encourage you to check out Dan’s books and other works (videos available here for free). His work is wonderful and you should check it out. Just because he is a little short-sighted on this one issue is not a reason you should deny yourself reading what are among the best books on society and economics — insightful and fun! Seriously. Dan is a superb writer, person, researcher… nobody is perfect though. But you gotta stop judging so quickly! Go get a copy of Dan’s book! You’ll love it. I don’t personally care where you get it although I suggest the public library.
Copyright, as far as I can tell, is basically an amoral, utilitarian law. It’s intended to promote the public interest in the creation and publication of creative works which otherwise would not be created, and to place those works in the public domain as fully and rapidly as possible, so that they’re of the most use.
It strikes me as having all the morality of the postal regulations that require that the stamp be in the upper right hand corner instead of the lower left.
Assuming that the copyright law is an ideal one (i.e. probably not the one we actually have), then violating it would be at worst short sighted, since it will trade a little temporary gratification for the infringer for a larger disappointment. Still no moral component, though. Likewise the opposite: if you obey copyright law, it’s because you ultimately benefit from doing so — that’s the whole reason for it to exist. I don’t think I’d characterize enlightened self interest as affirmatively moral, though.
Only if pressed would I say that there is any moral aspect to copyright, and that in such a case, it is pirates who are the moral actors (well, who can be, at any rate). This is because it surely must be more moral to share knowledge that is meant to be shared (as in the case of a work that is published or intended to be published) than it is to lock it up so as to grant access only to those who can pay for the privilege. After all, wouldn’t our ideal world be one in which everyone had the free use of all the world’s published knowledge — a magnificent personal library for each and every one of us?
Pirates who merely substitute themselves for a gatekeeper and charge for pirated copies wouldn’t qualify as being moral here (unless we’ve got graduations, since their price is probably lower), but plenty of people are happy to give things away, without any sort of compensation, not even using ads, or donations, or payments in kind, or what have you. If there absolutely must be a moral aspect to copyright, which I don’t think that there is, then surely these people have the better claim to morality than those who would set themselves up as gatekeepers and toll collectors, whatever their rationale.
Funny how the rightwingnuts don’t feel the same about music and movies bought by the general public. If record companies and movie studios stopped overcharging people for music and movies, people would stop pirating them – they would increase sales by lowering their prices. But unlike the fraud of rich assholes who hoard money through tax loopholes, it actually turns out to be true about the purchasing public – lower prices DO increase sale and thus revenues.
Baen Books is a good example of what happens when companies don’t steal by overcharging. Baen sells ebooks as PDFs for download – WITHOUT the obscenity of DRM – and make a small but decent profit on the sale of each book, rather than taking the lion’s share. The result? Well known and less well known science fiction writers reap the bulk of the profits and readers pay less than bookshelf prices. Everybody wins…except, of course, for the outdated greedy corporate whores at book publishing companies.
There is also a recent project called “Humble Bundle” where the public can buy a package of ebooks or computer games at ANY price – the buyer can choose the price, from one cent to $10,000. The result? The public were honest, and paid the creators a price that was profitable, yet less than corporate distributors would charge. To those who blather about “Let the market set the price,” the market DID set the price, and it worked for all involved, creators and purchasers.
The REAL piracy going on is corporate greed, the middlemen distributors and publishers who pay pittances to creators and charge exorbitant prices to the public. The “writer” doesn’t have the balls to admit that, he’s a shill for a corporation.
If the “writer” of the whining drivel were truly interested in stopping piracy, he’d be talking about the cause of the problem instead of blathering about a non-issue. Instead, he does what he’s told and repeats the lie told by corporate whores and lawyers, blaming the public instead of the real thieves sitting in corporate boardrooms. Ariely’s head is either in the clouds or up his ass.
Let me make this painfully obvious to the “free download” crowd. Money is a method of storing the energy you have expended. It is reflected one of the oldies but goodies “Time is Money.”
Yes, money is you life energy stored in a form to where it can be converted to to another persons good and services.
Long story short, any “Free Information” folks who would like to post their Bank Routing numbers so we can have some “Free Life Energy” … you have my full attention. My account is open, and I promise not to take all your money … just what I guess several years of the blood, sweat and tears it takes to create a book of value might consume.
Your argument itself boils down further. You are simply claiming that content creators are being unfairly exploited. That is an open claim worth considering. I have been saying all along that this concern is the one valid concern.
Put quite simply then, we can accept any solution which assures that creators are not unfairly exploited. There is no justification for assuming that one option (restrictions on copyright) is the only choice.
The legitimate discussion here is about how to fairly compensate creators with the minimum of negative impacts on the rest of society. Current copyright law is extremely out of balance and not the answer, period. The current system is completely dysfunctional. Is the answer a reformed truly limited-time copyright law, like the Constitution of U.S. actually calls for? Is the answer other funding mechanisms? How much of an exploitation problem do we really have? Thee are the questions for legitimate debate. We must be open-minded and use evidence to proceed forward effectively.
Here’s an example of suggestions when people actually try to find a fair balance:
http://infojustice.org/washington-declaration
If you want to debate those advocating reform, debate these real ideas, not the straw men.
You are the master of the oldest debate and sales tactic around, it is called “acknowledge and redirect.” I never “claim (ed) that content creators are being unfairly exploited.”
I said, or meant to say…You are stealing from someone, and the ease with which you can do it does not change this fact.
Period. End of story. Wrap it in as much flowery hyperbole as you like. If you would kindly forward your bank routing numbers, I can give you a working example of how it feels. It is really that simple. You have no content to steal, have no skin in the game, and the author is spot on, spend a lot of energy rationalizing this behavior.
There are things in life that are black and white. Stealing is one of them.
Aaron, in my world, the true test of character is what you do when no one is looking, so may I ask, do you steal the works of others safely hidden in the anonymous internet cloud?
Do you? It is a yes or no question.
Furthermore, if you want to show yourself to be an ethical person you will apologize for your baseless personal attacks. Almost everything you said is literally backwards. You said I have made no content (wrong, I’ve published several CDs and worked hard on lots of content of various sorts as a professional musician, teacher, and academic); you brought up anonymity while I am using my full real name; you have zero basis to accuse me of anything. All you have done is say that my argument (to which you have given no logical response) is invalid because you can invent ad hominem claims to dismiss me.
Your approach is despicable, and I really wish I knew how to better express this criticism in the most constructive way because I have no interest in beating up on you personally. I only wish to encourage respectful and fair intellectual discussion. It seems that you find that threatening, perhaps because your argument doesn’t have a good logical basis. And if asking people to be logical, respectful, and fair is a “tactic” then it is a perfectly honorable tactic, and I’m happy to stand by it.
Incidentally, I think Dan Ariely’s work is phenomenal and his underlying points about rationalizing are correct, they just are applied to the wrong thing in this case.
It took a while, but I finally have your answer:
Yes, I think that once you choose to publish and share your ideas with the world, then you should not have the right to stop others from using their ink and paper or other technology to copy and share and modify.
So, you see no connection between effort and reward.
And we don’t need a world with Bon Jovi being so wealthy, so if we lose that, so be it. If most authors can’t make a living, that is a problem, so I care to work on solving that.
“…If we lose that…” Aaron, this is the rub, every living thing expects a return on energy expended, and when that fails, that process is eventually abandoned. “Profit” comes in may forms, but it is always some form of return. The other night, I found a mother and daughter asleep on the street, huddled under a blanket. I put $20 in the infant’s hand, and felt that if someone stole that from her…basically … enjoy your time in Hell. I will never see them again, most likely. I did receive a reward for doing that, my own feeling of worth and helping someone have a better day. I profited form that. Not all profit is money or can be entered into an income statement.
Dozens of time ion this thread, I have pointed out that money is little more than stored energy, transferable between people. So when a person wants to buy a book, they need not barter and say, “I will come to your house and wash 5 windows for this.” If you can not grasp the basic and fundamental structure of money, what can I say?
If we have two cultures, one where everyone shares their ideas and one where everyone keeps things secret and tries to control everything, it is inevitable that the former will prosper and beat out the other.
Here it is: You believe a person will invest time, money, effort and life energy into something special and unique, and simply give it away. It is contrary to nature, and common sense. If, for example, there was a monkey that did that, and climbed trees all day, only to give away the fruits of his labor…I can tell you…that breed went extinct a long time ago.
Clearly you are describing a Utopian society, or perhaps a Star Trek adventure where consciousnesses does not need a vessel (a body filled with food, and a safe place to sleep)
Perhaps such a place exists, but not the planet the rest of us live on.
How simple is this to prove?
Your thesis is that return on effort has no value, and that effort exists for the “common good”
All the money in your bank came other from your direct effort, or if an inheritance, the effort of others. Or…Unless you are truly unique, and have a Bank that just keeps adding funds for absolutely no reason (Please, sign me up for that!)
Here is the proof that you are too smart to believe the things you write. And yes, sorry to say, it is yet another yes or no question, since it is a binary decision.
Will you be willing to send 100% of your money, and all future money earned to a charity, any charity, from now on…for the greater good, while you starve, and live in the street?
Yes or No. It is really that simple, because that is the tonic you expect the rest of us to enjoy.
Unless, in an Orwellian nightmare, you expect a taxpayer funded overlord to decide which work is “worthy” and which simply can not be funded. You do, of course, recognize that if there were universal funding, by logic, every man woman and child would be a fool not to “publish” something. I would guess there would be several thousand works simply called “Send me the money.”
As to my writing style, you might do best to focus on what people write, and if short sentences with actual talking points make it hard to reply…do not look for an apology from me.
Speaking of Orwell, consider one of his rules to effective communication:
“Never use a long word where a short one will do”
Long words don’t make you sound intelligent unless used skillfully. In the wrong situation they’ll have the opposite effect, making you sound pretentious and arrogant. They’re also less likely to be understood and more awkward to read.
Best of luck to you Aaaron, and please enjoy your cloistered life hidden within the safe walls of academia, where utopia is but a keystroke away.
You are the only one saying anything about work being given away for nothing. I am opposed to copyright restrictions. I am not opposed to authors getting paid. I said funding is important. Furthermore, I showed by example that authors can STILL get paid even when there are no copyright restrictions. And I’m not in academia, I’m opting to not return to academia in order to instead work on developing a fundraising system to support authorship.
At this point, you’re completely ignoring me and my ideas and just substituting an imaginary straw man who you can belittle because he is ridiculous. So if you want to keep doing that, you can just continue both sides of conversation without my involvement.
Good day
For the sake of reality, and since you claim to have some understanding of economic facts, consider this.
It would cost more to replicate, from scratch, a Lamborghini than buy one. It is a little principle called “Barrier to Entry” in the marketplace. (Economics 101…lecture …day four)
One would need to HAVE a Lamborghini to copy, disassemble it, measure every single component, have the machinery on hand to create all the parts, and then put one together. (Of course, in the process, violate dozens of patents, but that is just an old fashioned piece of nonsense, yes?)
However, a clever hacker could get all their intellectual property from the comfort of their hipster pad, yes?
So, we are back to square one, where you seem to confuse the ease with which something can be stolen, and the risk / cost associated with it.
By the way, a Lamborghini is really nothing more than the sum total of years of intellectual property, put into a physical form. Can you see how those are very much the same thing?
1. If you think that unauthorized copying is theft no matter what and authors should have exclusive copyright control REGARDLESS of economics, then you shouldn’t have to make any economic argument at all.
2. If you think copyright and patent laws are justified for economic reasons, then (A) acknowledge that we AGREE that funding is important and that (B) the issue is just a matter of gathering evidence to determine whether copyright and patent laws are actually economically positive or not and how they compare to alternative mechanisms for funding.
If you believe that, “Copying is not theft, period.” then there is nothing to discuss. Let’s look at an example of copying, and see how this may apply. Let’s pick a company…hmmmm…Microsoft, Prada, Rolex. Merck…oh, I don’t know, just pick one. OK, let’s say Microsoft, since their content is best matches electronic thievery. They pad millions to get the code, more millions to market it, and another bundle to support it. So, if we all just “Copy” their software, they are unharmed by this? This is your thesis???
The concept is so painfully obvious, perhaps you can not see the forest for the trees.
You see, there is a finite number of potential buyers of all goods and services. Can you agree with that?
Each “free” (Stolen) “Copy” equals one less buyer. Can you agree with that?
Taken to a ridiculous extreme, if a piece of intellectual property took years to create, and it could then be “Copied” and made available in a Global way so every man, woman and child on the planet had a “Copy” and the owner / creator of said content did not receive any payment, the entire profit portion of the project = ZERO, where the consumption portion = The Whole World. Can you agree with that?
In this scenario, Demand is high (Actually pretty much as high as possible) , Supply is unlimited, but there seems to be one odd portion…there…is…no….profit…to…the …person…who…created…it. Can – you – agree – with – that?
Aaron, thank you for getting me to laugh out loud…OMG…did you actually write a sentence that begins with “Your approach is despicable…” and ends with ” I have no interest in beating up on you personally…” Priceless!
I will probably drop this thread soon, because although I respect you right to exercise in intellectual masturbation, I am not sure I want to be the object of your affection.
Your entire argument just now boils down to HARM=THEFT.
You provided no logic or evidence for theft, only for economic harm. Now, I think there is a lot unclear about overall economic harm of copying, but I never said that was simple. There are reasonable arguments about copying causing harm in terms of freeloading, i.e. not adequately funding creators. What is the point of trying to force this harm into being called “theft”??
I have learned that talking to you is not a conversation. We in the thread are simply a foil for you to lecture and scold. I ask a series of questions. What I am trying to do define the terms we are using, so we can have a conversation.
It is so simple. Here are my points.
(1) I think copying intellectual property is the same as stealing it.
(2) I think stealing is wrong.
Is that perfectly clear?
1. We disagree. You have made arguments to show that illegal copying is harmful (something I think is complex and unclear but is a reasonable hypothesis with supporting evidence). You haven’t shown any more reason to call illegal copying “theft” than to call breaking-and-entering or trespassing “theft”. I’ll leave it at we disagree though. You think copying is theft and I think not.
2. We completely agree. Theft is wrong.
The extra part is: if you accepted my view on #1, that copying is not theft, this does not compel you to accept that illegal copying is ok. You can still say that illegal copying is also wrong, just for some reason other than being theft. I might or might not agree, but it would be a more productive discussion.
Respectfully,
Aaron
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
Do you think that if a person walks into a store, puts a Rolex in their pocket and then walks out without paying for it, they are stealing a watch?
If you think that is stealing, we have much to discuss.
If you think that is not stealing, may I please thank you for this entertaining exchange, wish you well, and end this conversation…
Best Regards…. RCP
The stretch which is rhetorical but approaching absurdity is to say that copying is theft OF CONTROL OVER COPYING or of potential income. The former is clearly the case but this in itself doesn’t justify the control in the first place, and stealing someone’s unjust control is morally acceptable (regardless of what the law says). There are arguments that the control is justified, but I have come to reject them over many years of consideration. Theft of potential income is a position that requires evidence and only applies if income really is being reduced by the particular act. And if we accept that it is, I still feel we must clarify what is being stolen. In the end, I believe that we need to find alternative ways to fund authorship, and then this one concern would be addressed.
Anyway, glad seem to have come to some respectful understanding here. Cheers.
OK, we are making progress, agreed.
Aaron, every good and service has a price attached to it. When a person graphs out supply and demand, they will discover that for almost every product, the lower the price, the higher the sales volume.
That is why people who are asking for $100 sometimes drop the price to say, $69 to stimulate sales (Am I really having to explain this to an adult?)
The owner of intellectual property for sale operates in this model too. When cyber theft is effortless and “accepted” the functional price is Zero. Now, there is no hand wringing, “Gosh, $19.99 to but this book, CD, information” since it is “Free”
If a person does not understand they are shoplifting this merchandise, or lacks a moral compass that prohibits that action, then it is only logical to assume that at a price of Zero, consuming the product is something of a no brain-er.
Again, how long would Microsoft stay in business, if from this day forward, every single version of every single thing they created was free to download. How long could Merck fund research if every new medicine could just be copied and given away for free. Who in their right mind would operate a car company where all you had to do was call, and they would deliver a car…for free? And, how many books will be written by people who view that as their job, passion and life work…not as a hobby, a blog, a whim…a job they risk much for, in hopes of downstream reward delivers Zero profit.
The ease with which something can be stolen does not diminish or change the fact it has been, and the person who has been deprived of an opportunity to profit form their toil is the damaged party.
It is so simple to me, I am having difficulty grasping your confusion. Can you imagine standing at the gates of a Steel Mill on payday, and telling workers you are taking their checks? (Good luck on that one!) … but perhaps you are suggesting if you could hack their bank accounts from the comfort and safety of your laptop…it would be reasonable and OK???
I have visited your page, and watched the silly “Copy” movie. One problem there my friend…in that world, in short order, there would be no bicycle to copy and happily ride away on. Who the hell makes bikes for free?
Yes, when you make a copy, there are “more” in the world, but every time you do, there is less opportunity for the owner to profit form the original creation and at some point, the content for sale creative process simply ends, since living indoors and eating does have some value to humans.
See you at the steel mill! Enjoy grabbing those paychecks!
Having said that, there is still *some* validity to the whole supply/demand price etc. issue, but this fundamentally only applies to *scarce* goods.
When it comes to “intellectual property”, we connect it to the same supply/demand price factors through artificial scarcity via copyright law. This is not a natural free market way for these works to be handled, it is artificial regulation of the market designed to achieve funding for authorship. But like many other attempts to force something into an economic position that it doesn’t naturally fit, artificial scarcity has a myriad of problems. So, if we can achieve a different still effective funding system, we could drop this artifice. I do believe that figuring out a replacement system for funding is important, and I’m working on a solution myself, alongside many other existing options.
Furthermore, you have suggested a hypothesis: If something can be copied for free, it will no longer be made (or updates or innovations won’t anyway). You wrote: “in that world, in short order, there would be no bicycle to copy and happily ride away on. Who the hell makes bikes for free?” But this is obviously internally wrong. Given this absurd fantasy world, nobody is needed to make bikes for free — they can be copied for free. If we had that, we wouldn’t need manufacturers, but we would all have more bicycles than ever. Copying doesn’t make things disappear. Quite the opposite. Copying means there are MORE.
I have to assume you meant that nobody would develop improved bicycles, nobody would make new versions. But this is just a hypothesis without evidence. And actually there is a LOT of evidence to the contrary! If you actually read the links at my site, you can learn about the evidence. Here’s just one of the most obvious examples: Wikipedia. There’s lots more examples too. Contrary to your claims, it appears that people constantly innovate even when things are free to copy. But I’m not an extremist. I still think we need some traditional funding. There’s just other ways to get it besides artificial scarcity.
I do not need to read Dan’s book to understand supply / demand economics, especially at this most basic and fundamental level. Perhaps all the books I had to read to graduate magna cum laude on this exact subject can suffice for the time being?
Aaaron, before the internet and cyber piracy, books were “scarce” goods. They are still, but with the help of the “Copy” crowd, to a much lesser degree
As usual, you have tried to take us far off track into a granular examination of a tangential argument while ignoring the basic conversation. However, I am interested in your constant reference to the word “funding.” Perhaps this is the disconnect. If you are describing a third person arrangement where creators of intellectual property are paid by someone, but not part of a free market / for profit system…then we are simply in “apples and oranges” land.
Copying means more of whatever exists today, and if your goal is to truncate the creative process of all good, services and research in the future, that would be an excellent method. The question is, as you well know, is if “Copying” on a global scale is possible, creating unlimited supply overnight, it would only be necessary to make one of everything. Interestingly, this is the exact same model as intellectual property. You write one book once, then those finite versions are sold. Once the supply is infinite via “Copying” and free of charge, there is no incentive for anyone to pay for it.
If you could “Copy” a bicycle and make it free to the world, then the manufacture of one more bicycle at the bicycle factory would be pure folly, and any new version would be an exercise in futility, since there is nothing to gain from it. Unless you are describing some other planet where people do not behave in a manner that serves their best interests.
The denial of the laws of supply and demand is to economic theory what the denial of gravity is to physics. If we are at a point where you are debating whether supply and demand drives behavior, we are at a crossroad.
If you are questioning the profit opportunity of supplying a good / service in a world where there is demand for it, we are on a very narrow bridge indeed.
If you are suggesting that generally speaking, people will continue to innovate, create and supply goods and services where they derive absolutely no benefit, we are running headfirst into a brick wall.
I circle back to my original observation that money is a form of stored energy that allows one to take their effort into the marketplace and exchange it for the work of others. A person who toils to create a book, for example, sells that book, and in so doing, gathers “money” (A return / reward for taking time out of his life to create the book other want to read) and later in the day, exchanges that money for a bicycle.
You see Aaron, you have missed the entire point in the Supply / Demand cycle. There is one thing that is undeniably finite, and can not be “Copied.” TIme. Those minutes a person is alive. Can we agree that is a finite set?
When a person elects to spend those finite and precious minutes creating something, minutes which can never be “copied,” replicated or replaced…they are (hopefully) trading it for something of equal or greater value.
Your system deprives them of that fair exchange, Your “let someone ‘Fund’ it” presumes some third party can decide what the time, energy and creative power others are worth. And interestingly, overlooks that even in that model, money is changing hands. Whose money? Like any buyer, would they not then be looking at the supply of goods / services, and placing a value on it, and in so doing, going back to square one? If there were an infinite supply of money, guess what? It would have no value! (Example: There is functionally a near infinite supply of air for humans, what is the current market price?)
If there is a finite amount of money, then logic would say that to give some money to the most people, the lowest possible price would have to be found. That means you are placing equal value on the works of a future Hemingway, and me. I sir, am no Hemingway (well, there is finally something we can both agree on with a grin!!)
So yes, in the short run, we can pirate intellectual property and it seems all good, but in the long run, it simply does not support any logical reason for most people to create more of it. I say most, because there are a select few trust fund babies, tenured professors and lunatics who have the luxury of “contributing” with only the warm glow of the “greater good” as ample reward. For the vast majority of this planet, the reality is…I am hungry, and need to engage in an activity that provides some food.
Oh, I have an idea! I am an excellent poet! I will write poetry and sell it! Woops, some bastard “Copied” it all, and made it available to the whole world for free. Two years of toil, shot in the ass…and still hungry. Not so nice Aaron, not nice at all.
“Unless you are describing some other planet where people do not behave in a manner that serves their best interests.”
The rational world you describe is a myth. It is the fantasy. At least if you stick to “best interests” meaning the assumptions of traditional economics.
Watch the first video here:
http://danariely.com/videos/
You are arguing as the guy who cares more about believing your model of the world than in testing whether it is true.
You NEED to read Dan’s books if you care about science and evidence and want to actually understand economics. Your understanding so far is not scientific. Traditional economics is no science, and the laws of supply and demand are nothing like gravity.
I’m not otherwise going to repeat myself. The issue here seems that you are stuck in believing the assumptions of traditional economic science to the point where you haven’t been open to evidence to the contrary.
Quote Dan, “When people are paid very little they work very little.”
“Copy” = “Theft” and steals income from producers. They are therefore paid less. Why would you think they will work harder to produce more?
That is the rub my dear friend. Cut an dried.
Nowhere in the study of economics is there a presumption that people make purchases based on pure rational analytic reflection. in some cases, we only care what they consume, not why. It is possible to simultaneously care about your long term health, and be a chain smoker. Not exactly rational. But it must, by definition, be “serving the (smokers) best interests”…no matter how insane you I and I find that disconnect to be.
If the price of rice is $1 per pound, consumption would be “X”
If the price of rice is $10 per pound, consumption would be “Y” (less than X)
If the price of rice is $10,000 per pound, consumption would be “Z” (less than Y)
For the love of god, can you agree on that?
However, if rice was free, consumption would “F” and number much high than X,Y,Z.
Again, if that is outside your “reality” I am am a loss to figure out what planet you live on.
Why is rice actually selling for “X” ? Because that is where supply and demand lines cross and intersect with “Price.”
Sweet Jesus…am I really taking time to explain what every kid who ever sold a cup of road side lemonade already knows???
You said:
““Copy” = “Theft” and steals income from producers. They are therefore paid less.”
Ok, so you agree, first, that what is stolen is income, and NOT the thing copied, right? Because at least we are using the term the same way. If you accept that, then copying is only theft of income IF income would have happened without the copying. So lots of copying does not apply, only some. It is definitely true that most copyright law apologists greatly overstate their losses. They treat all copying as lost sales, when the evidence doesn’t support this. But I will still agree with you that SOME lost sales can arguably be considered theft. But this isn’t enough to just say that illegal copying is *necessarily* theft, only that it *can* be, and that it is theft of income, not theft of something else.
You wrote:
“Quote Dan, “When people are paid very little they work very little.””
Where did you get this quote? Dan does not believe in a simplistic correlation between pay and work. Quite the opposite. His own research shows that there is a complex relationship where people may do the most when not paid at all because they don’t think about money, just about challenge; when paid they do more up to a point, after which there is diminishing returns and eventually a level where very high pay REDUCES effectiveness and productive output; but overall salary (not tied directly to one-for-one output) is mostly a comparative thing, as in how are you paid compared to your colleagues, after we get to a basic living-wage level.
Re: your claims on price: Sorry you are flat out wrong. There is SOME basis for your ideas, but they are provably false. People do NOT raise prices dramatically in a state of emergency when demand surges; people do NOT price things according to supply and demand like you suggest.
And FREE? Sheesh. Read DAN’S BOOKS. He did several studies about this. Here’s one summary: Distribute candy out in public, vary between FREE and 1-cent each, what happens? More total people take candy when it is free, but LESS TOTAL CANDY IS CONSUMED! Why? Because at 1-cent people took advantage of the deal and bought a lot. When it was free, they recognized it as a community resource and felt it was only fair for them to take a small amount. Dan has a whole chapter in his first book about these complex issues of how people treat things when they are free.
Don’t waste your time trying to tell me how traditional economic assumptions work. I already understand them, and I’m rejecting them because they are untrue. I have studied traditional economics AND behavioral economics. You only know the former, and somehow you think it is unassailably accurate, but you’re mistaken. READ DAN’S BOOKS, and don’t just do quote-mining.
You will be especially interested to learn of one of Dan’s findings from his research: It turns out that there is one group of people who consistently DO behave according to the assumptions of traditional economics: ECONOMISTS and ECONOMICS STUDENTS! In Dan’s research, they do rational cost/benefit analysis and seem to go with the logic of what their understanding of economics would assume! Everyone else, on the other hand, behaves very differently.
Seriously, the stuff in Dan’s research is no about learning the stuff you studied. It’s a different perspective, but it is based on empirical scientific research, not just speculation or philosophy. You really would do well to read his work. I guarantee that at the very least you will have a better sense of this side of economic theory that is distinct from what you know now.
Cheers
You wrote “It is definitely true that most copyright law apologists greatly overstate their losses. They treat all copying as lost sales, when the evidence doesn’t support this.”
May I ask, which sources did you rely on for your claims of overstatement and what is precisely is the evidence to the contrary?
But there’s truth behind it (besides the fact that he used statistics actually from real claims by the industries).
I really should reference some objective things though. I’m sorry I don’t have time.
What I really was referring to was simply the idea that all unauthorized copies are claimed by publishers as lost revenue. It is undeniable, however, that many (if not most) copies are done in a case where no purchase would have happened anyway. Put simply, any claim that 100% or near 100% of copying are income losses is overstatement. And in my non-objective experience, the majority of copyright-apologists make this claim. But you’re right: I was hasty to use my wording. Sorry. I encourage the best discourse but do not always live up to my own ideals. Thanks for helping me keep in check.
Respectfully, Aaron
Don’t you find this statement to be largely subjective?
To support that statement we’d need to define the variety of circumstances in which copies are created, then identify which of those would not otherwise have been a sale. I’ve described four below.
1&2: Copies for the purpose of private data protection (i.e. not a publicly shared repository) and copies made, for example, to share among immediate family members are copies, yes, however I doubt those are the types of copies that worry content producers. And clearly those types of copies would not have resulted in sales.
3. Copies downloaded and, perhaps, never consumed, might also fall into the “no purchase would have happened anyway” bucket…though that too is debatable. I’m ashamed to admit I have purchased and never used many products, including software applications and ebooks. Just because the download isn’t consumed, doesn’t mean it would not have previously resulted in a purchase (prior to nonuse). I would imagine it is virtually impossible to determine the percentage of downloads never consumed.
4. In my opinion that leaves one scenario: copies downloaded and consumed. I believe it is absolutely fair to say that the majority of such downloads are lost sales if only because there is no reliable way to determine, on a case by case basis, what percentage of downloaders would not otherwise have made a purchase.
May I ask, which types of copying did you take into consideration when making your statement?
So, simply put: logic and evidence point to a conclusions that only a modest portion of illegal copying represents actually lost sales (if only, admittedly, because so much copying is possible). There’s even evidence that copying can increase sales as more people get interested in something. The full reality is unknown, but coming to the discussion claiming that nearly all copies represent lost sales is way too much of a stretch to be taken seriously.
You’re purposely being literal here regarding the use of the word “consume”. Of course we can consume information/entertainment/sensory inputs. Our digestive systems consume food. Our nervous systems, of which our brains are a part, consume information in its many forms. Consumption of information nourishes the brain much the same way that consumption of food nourishes the body. The difference — information is the ultimate durable good…an enduring resource.
As for assuming that illegal downloaders would never likely buy legal copies…well, there’s no evidence to back that up. Many illegal downloaders are just as likely to be people who are mostly honest and simply opportunistic. You know the old saying…locks are to keep honest people honest. Why buy when they can get it for free?
Regarding the amount of buying vs illegal copying, you are wrong here. There’s evidence that illegal sharers buy MORE legal music than other people:
http://www.techhive.com/article/2012121/pirates-buy-more-music-than-legal-downloaders-study-shows.html
So, reality is backwards from your view. Not only is it the case that lots of illegal sharing happens where they would NOT have bought a copy if they had to, it’s the opposite: they buy even MORE, they buy anyway. At least many do.
A phone survey?
I should not have to point out why that is not a quality source for such an important subject. The results are worthless.
What we know for certain: some (how much? maybe most even? more data needed) illegal copiers also buy legal copies of things; some (likely all) illegal copiers at times copy things they are curious about but would not buy if that were the only option.
Here’s the issue: once illegal copying became widespread, the amount of illegal copying was enormous. I wish I had numbers (they’re probably somewhere), but I think there’s been more copies shared illegally than total sales of music prior to file-sharing. If that is right, then saying that all illegal copies represent lost sales is the same as saying that music sales would on the verge of sudden doubling or tripling if only file-sharing hadn’t come along.
This report that I included earlier is much more objective and thorough: http://www.techdirt.com/skyisrising/
and it shows sales are UP. If you were to add all illegal copies to the already high sales numbers, you’d have a total unrealistic figure for music sales. This is enough to conclude that illegal copies are NOT mostly lost sales.
Here’s the real question: can YOU provide ANY evidence that ANY illegal copies are lost sales? And it seems fair that your evidence needs to be strong, because you have a high bar for what you consider better than “worthless”.
I should add to all this discussion: I don’t think disregarding the law is ok actually. I think there are problems with breaking the law, among them the unfairness of some people playing by the rules and others don’t, also Dan’s “What-the-hell effect” comes into play. I think some people believe in the law and feel that they are cheating when they copy but they do it anyway because we all cheat a little. I don’t advocate cheating, I’m advocating changing the law. It’s like the war-on-drugs. I don’t advocate illegal marijuana use nor do I do it myself; but I support legalization (with regulation) philosophically.
That anyone would use consumer phone survey results as a source for serious claims about the positive economic impact of illegal downloads is laughable. Neither side of the debate should take such survey results seriously.
Neither of us can provide anything other than assumptions and unsubstantiated evidence. Certainly no evidence that would be scientifically rigorous. My expertise is information management. I deal with people and their information assets daily. Oftentimes they barely recall where they saved their last file let alone the types and ballpark percentages of content on their systems, and how those files were obtained.
I’ve not provide evidence up to this point because I feel no quality evidence exists whether for or against. I simply called you out on your “evidence”. If you want to appear credible, I’d suggest you find something more rigorous than phone survey results. I wish you luck. I’ve not found anything worth mentioning.
My bigger point is: if there are real concerns about lost sales, then we do in fact need to be concerned about achieving adequate funding otherwise. I’m working on it, but there’s lots of options these days: http://money.futureofmusic.org/
So even if you are right (which I still highly doubt), copyright as a funding mechanism is not enough justification giving the other problems it has. I really think a fair balance is this: http://infojustice.org/washington-declaration
The framework of that proposal is not the elimination of copyright, but merely the reform to be much more respectful of access and fair use concerns. Perhaps you can get behind that.
Cheers, and thanks again for being civil
I did not thoroughly evaluate this enough to strongly vouch for it, but I found a report that seems much more rigorous. See this:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1350451
It is only in the Netherlands, so we can’t assume it holds everywhere. And of course it can’t be 100% certain. But their study indicates substitution ratio for the Dutch music industry, and estimated a substitution ratio of 5-7%, i.e. one lost sale for every 15-20 illegal copies.
By the way, I appreciate your critiques. If you see any fundamental problems with this report, I appreciate hearing it. You seem to be a fair and well-intended critic.
Cheers
I am beginning to wonder if you actually read what others write, or are a key word search bot who laces every paragraph with “Read Dan’s Books”
You know, i have never downloaded a “Copy” of a book for “Free” but may make an exception in this case.
Please furnish me with exact details how to get Dan’s work, in entirety, for free, and I will consider “borrowing” a “Copy”
But yes, that’s a quirky example.
Anyway, to get Dan’s books, check here:
http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=dan+ariely&&dblist=638&fq=+ap%3A%22ariely%2C+dan%22
That’s the listing of most libraries. Of course, the simplest thing is to look up your local library, and see if they have them (very likely). If not, you can use interlibrary loan. I recommend the updated 2nd edition of Predictably Irrational. I’ve read all three books, and I think they are all excellent. And it certainly isn’t like you’re just reading stuff from some jerk you don’t agree with. On the topic HERE, you are siding with Dan! You’ll like his books, they are fun, simple, and scientifically-based. And if you are working in economics, you should be familiar with his work.
Cheers
I want to “Copy” every word, thought and concept, and not pay him a single penny for it. I want to be able to re-send it, re-sell it, post it wherever I choose. Hell, I may even translate it to Mandarin, put my name on it and sell it in China!
That IS what this entire conversation is about, yes?
Where do i go to get all his intellectual property for free?
Please advise…
My way is: I’d like to see the public library become 100 times more efficient and widely used. I’d like to see everyone have ready access to the materials through the library, both digital files and physical, and library patronage go up greatly. The library is a wonderful institution. I’m concerned about it being hampered by restrictions on digital files and such.
I think it would be wonderful if the library system were so efficient and effective that people would have much less reason to ever download illegal copies. Yet most copyright defenders don’t seem to share my vision. I think this is because their concern isn’t actually about stealing or legality, it’s about control and money. So from that view all the downloaders going to the library instead isn’t acceptable. But that argument is avoided because it’s not so popular to be anti-library.
Incidentally, his book first book is already translated to Mandarin, but translating books is a pretty positive thing. I hope you didn’t mean in your sarcasm to imply that doing translations is immoral or something.
I thought this conversation was about a person getting intellectual property in one manner or another without the author receiving any monetary reward for it, If that is not what we are talking about, please let me know.
If it is, again, please send me all Dan’s work, for free, or tell me how to get it without too much hassle without paying him.
Aaron, what a person does with something they stole is between them and their sense of right and wrong. If one lacks a sense of right and wrong and are willing to steal, do you really think a lecture about what the do with it later has much value? Don’t really need your input on plagiarism right now, I need free intellectual property!
I am making an exception in this one case, am willing to steal Dan’s works, not pay him…please…what is the problem??? This is precisely what you are promoting and defending, and in a rather delicious moment for me, brings us full circle.
Please recall my first posting that noted that it seems to depend on whose ox is being gored.
Oh, I’m sorry, when it is Dan’s Ox, it stings a bit? Boo hoo.
I, in fact, got Dan’s books from the public library, as I do for almost all the books I read. The library is a way to get books conveniently (you can request online and be notified when they are available, very simple), and in this country no payment goes to authors when you take out the book from a library.
You have been trying to force this conversation into being something it has not been on my end. I am NOT saying that people should disregard morality and the law and do whatever they want. I am saying morality matters, funding matters, and freedoms to copy, share, use, and modify matter (within clear guidelines such as giving due credit). I am saying that copyright law today is immoral and anti-freedom, but that we must be sure we have effective funding mechanisms in place to support future authorship at the same time as we reform copyright. Thankfully, there are TONS of effective funding solutions: http://money.futureofmusic.org/
And I’m working on inventing a new one also.
Look, use Dan’s example from his post here: interracial marriage was once considered illegal and immoral. Pretend we were having this discussion back then. You would be someone saying that everyone who has an interracial marriage is a traitor to their race, and you would acknowledge that some of these “traitors” at least admit it but are too enticed by the appeal of their spouse. You would be accusing me of refusing to admit my love affairs (or at least my lust) outside my race or something. In fact, you would be RIGHT to make a distinction between (A) someone who dates interracially and feels like they are cheating the system and (B) someone who does the same actions but refuses to admit that they are violating anything or take any personal responsibility. Members of the B group might actually be rationalizing and lying to themselves rather than having thought through the ethical philosophy of it. There can also, of course be groups (C) thoughtfully violating the law because they fundamentally believe that interracial marriage is moral and (D) people who oppose the law and defend interracial marriage but aren’t involved themselves. You aren’t acknowledging these latter groups. You think everyone who does not fully support the law fits groups A or B.
Translate our conversation to this past issue:
ME: Interracial marriage is fine, stop demonizing it!
YOU: well, hook me up with a hot chick from another race, I want to taste some of this hot action, that’s what this is about, right? Gettin’ it on with whoever you like with no regard for social order or letting down your family…
Of course, you think this is hyperbole because we both today accept interracial marriage. But really, you are misunderstanding my argument. I’m arguing about what is moral. I’m not arguing for blatant disregard of the law or of morality. I’m not some guy trying to rationalize my actions and refuse to take responsibility, I’m the guy who mostly follows the law by using the library while still knowing that the law is unjust and advocating for it to be changed.
Please…”all the world’s a stage”…proceed sir! Please, do enlighten us, since you have already wed yourself to this bizarre prophetic where “Copying” is some bullshit cloaking device for “I stole your stuff, and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.”
How Copywrite is an income generator is a mystery wrapped in an enigma stuffed in a sack hidden in a cave on an moon circling a planet yet undiscovered. Anymore than a lock on a door is a espresso maker, or a user name / password if said three times fast get BeetleJuice to jump out of the floor.
In this case, you are saying getting your hands on someone else’s work for free is OK. Period. Full stop. You can use every conceivable obtuse angle, draw from any ridiculous “source”, but that, my brilliant friend, is the nut of it.
You haven’t offered any substance, “my friend”. You will get along with people better if you learn to be less condescending. And I know this from experience because I’m not perfect and I’ve sometimes been condescending myself. When I figure out how to get past that, things go better. So forgive me for whatever way I might seem defensive. You have been less than respectful, and now you are just being intellectually dishonest as well.
If you care to actually continue a fair discussion, you could start by reading this well-cited article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_metaphor
Let us begin…I have the cure for X right here in my head. it is a formula. I have never said one word of aloud, to anyone…ever.
Oh look! I wrote it down on a piece of paper and left it on my desk, and headed out for a nice cappuccino and a lively debate with my friend Aaron.
So far so good. But sadly, her comes the plot twist…someone breaks into my office and steals the piece of paper with the formula on it! Oh my!
Aaron, did they steal a piece of paper with some ink on it, or my Intellectual Property?
Let’s see, shall we? Hmmm.. do.they go to their laboratory and say, “Dr, Frankenstein, I have a piece of paper with ink on it!” Noooo… probably not. They say, “Yes!! We have the formula!!!” (Insert sinister laugh here)
Next thing you know, the world is littered with Frankfurters (Yes, that was the secret formula) and even a pretty gnarly looking dude is dating Miss October, I mean, he just made a Gazillion Dollars (Rounded to the nearest GaZill).
I, sadly, am still a lowly worker bee puttin’ in my time for d’ dime. But i am not worried, all i lost really was one 8 1/2 x 11 and a drop of ink, yes?
Wrong. They stole something Aaron, an idea.
No seriously, I do believe you struggle with short answers, so just to be sure you can actually do a short answer, please let me ask three before the “big one” as sort of an acid test to see if you are word salad crazy.
Aaron (No really, please answer these)
What is the sum of one plus one?
___________
Which is bigger, a breadbox, or the bread that fits in it? ___________
Who is taller, you, or the tallest person on the planet Earth today?
___________
I honestly think you can not answer those, so will be surprised if you can answer this:
(1) Did they steal a piece of paper with ink on it
(2) The idea those inky words described
(a) Answer 1
(a) Answer 2
(c) Both answer 1 and answer 2
What is the sum of one plus one? TWO
Which is bigger, a breadbox, or the bread that fits in it? THE BOX
Who is taller, you, or the tallest person on the planet Earth today? THE TALLEST GUY
…
(1) Did they steal a piece of paper with ink on it YES
(2) The idea those inky words described ONLY IF THEY CLAIM THAT THEY ARE THE AUTHORS OF THE IDEA, although I’d accept that they STOLE ACCESS maybe, since the ideas weren’t published
Your insistence that questions always have a simple yes/no answer amounts to a demand that the world work the way you want it to work.
My turn:
Please tell me you agree with me that we need:
*restrictions against plagiarism
*protection for privacy (including the ability to keep ideas secret to a reasonable extent, and confidentiality where appropriate)
*Authors being able to express approval or disapproval of uses of their work
*Mechanisms to fund authorship
Now if you want to get anywhere, you’ll have to defend why we should have copyright laws if we can achieve the things listed above in other ways.
(1) Did they steal a piece of paper with ink on it YES
Agreed.
(2) The idea those inky words described ONLY IF THEY CLAIM THAT THEY ARE THE AUTHORS OF THE IDEA,
You Aaaron, after all this time, honestly, I think we are talking about separate issues, and I may be mistaken. I thought you were defending “Copying” (Books, music, etc…you know…ideas) for free and not paying the author in any way. As in Pirated via the internet. No one downloads Bon Jovi, then says “I am Bon Jovi” … OK, there was one guy, but he lives in a padded cell now, bless his heart.
You see, Bon Jovi spent a lifetime, and a bit of cash to publish his music. Perhaps you and I don’t have Bon Jovi tattoos, OK, again, apologies for assuming, if you do…I am sure it is lovely.
But I think, now correct me if i am missing the mark, isn’t the idea to sell his music and make a bit of cash, rather than move these color TV’S? Just a hunch, but I don’t think he is so much motivated by the “common good of humanity.” Nice guy, but he likes his cash, thank you very much!
So, it is a mute point if the kind Dr. Frankenstein claims the hot diggity dog formula was his, the little problem is, he stole that idea form me! (*sigh* OK, you got me, I am actually in charge of moving those color TV’s, and it sucks, frankly)
If you would send me all of Dan’s work for free, and then I set up a “Dan’s Intellectual Property for Free!” site, and let people download it, until everyone who gives a hoot has a “copy” …it kind of looks like the one phrase we needed to use all along comes into play…Opportunity Cost. Even if the entire net return was one shiny pennie, Dan deserves that, not me, and my minions of free-(down) loaders.
“….although I’d accept that they STOLE ACCESS maybe, since the ideas weren’t published….”
Ummm…so PUBLISHED ideas are free game?
May I ask what the distinction is???
I am so sorry you did become an atomic physicist, because your ability to focus on one minute portion of a conversation rivals their fixation with a single proton.
You did pass that quiz with flying colors, care for round two?
Aaron, is there anything in this world you can point at, and say, “That is wrong.” Anything, you know, Rape, Incest, Burning down a hospital, the bombing of Dresden? Anything? Because if you can not make that distinction, you are the poster child for the Cult of Moral Grayness.
So, yes or no, is there any behavior you can point at and say, “That is wrong?”
Please…this is an important question…
Thank you.
I just wrote something saying that I think certain things are wrong, plagiarism is one example, and you asked me if I have a sense of right and wrong.
I’m not going to honor your BS. Everyone’s a mixed bag and some of the things you’ve said have merit and were respectful. Others not so much. And I have work to do.
Yes, I think that once you choose to publish and share your ideas with the world, then you should not have the right to stop others from using their ink and paper or other technology to copy and share and modify. And we don’t need a world with Bon Jovi being so wealthy, so if we lose that, so be it. If most authors can’t make a living, that is a problem, so I care to work on solving that.
If we have two cultures, one where everyone shares their ideas and one where everyone keeps things secret and tries to control everything, it is inevitable that the former will prosper and beat out the other. Science and culture thrive when ideas are shared. I think the idea that Google or whatever other middle-man can profit greatly while authors struggle is a serious valid concern and I want a system to regulate that. There are many real concerns. But trying to control and restrict ideas once they are out in the world and trying to stop sharing and access — those are bad ideas that have negative consequences for society.
As for Dan’s books, I got them from the library, so I don’t know where to get illegal copies, but you can probably find them if you search. Oh, and I’m not opposed to Dan getting paid (although I’m sure he’s doing quite well as a renowned professor paid for all his research, teaching, public talks, and the many many copies of his books that sell despite illegal copying).
I myself recently PURCHASED Nina Paley’s book here: http://questioncopyright.com/misinfobook.html
Because I love her work. It happens that she has 100% of the content free online anyway (http://mimiandeunice.com/), and she gives everyone legal permission to copy, print, modify, and even SELL her work (via a Creative Commons license). I wanted to support her and have a physical book to share with friends. Allowing sharing doesn’t stop people from making money.
I expect at this point you’ll ignore my (admittedly excessively long) post here, or you’ll just say something condescending and ignore everything I’m saying. Either way, I don’t have any more time for this. The future of Free Open access and sharing is only going to grow, and you’ll just have to live with it just as racists have had to deal with a world full of interracial relationships. I hope for your sake that you adapt rather than remain spiteful and resentful.
Best wishes
“Yes, I think that once you choose to publish and share your ideas with the world, then you should not have the right to stop others from using their ink and paper or other technology to copy and share and modify”
Aaron, this is like saying once Lamborghini builds a car by hand, they should not have the right to stop a person driving it away for free.
You have achieved the near impossible, and rendered me speechless. If there were a Nobel prize for self rationalizing Bullshit, you sir, would certainly win it year after year.
I would be hard pressed to imagine an eight year old child not being able to grasp that when you take something that belongs to someone else, it is stealing. I give not Rat Ass One what flowery jargon and rhetoric you wrap that in.
Do not send me a scolding letter about my language or tone, i have reached the end of my tether, for a debate with an autistic child would have a more linear thread. You are, in my estimation beyond hope, have the ability to reason, and are a compete waste of time to talk to.
You do know there is a thing called a “simple sentence.” The greatest orators use them all the time.
I honestly believe if someone asks you about the weather, you tell them there is an indirect relationship between outside air temperature with consideration for relative humidity combined with wind speed and direction and the quantity and quality of protective layers of clothing an individual elects to wear when exposed to said conditions and directly proportional to the duration of exposure the individual endures. All told, the experience is a combination of empirically demonstrable physiological phenomenon, and a portion of that remainder is a subjective analysis based on nerve pathway messages derived via the central nervous system to the brain, which, in turn, process the emotion attached to the physiological reality, or non reality of the effective condition in a relative behavioral sense, but then again, perhaps not.
For the rest of us, “I am really cold” seems to cover it nicely, thank you.
Best of luck to you. And for your own sake, never, ever venture far from the Ivory Tower…you may be quite surprised how the rest of the wold is operating, and what happens to people who steal from others.
You wrote “this is like saying once Lamborghini builds a car by hand, they should not have the right to stop a person driving it away for free.”
NO.
I believe that after Lamborghini builds a car they should not have the right to stop anyone from making their own replica by hand (as long as they credit Lamborghini for the design and make it clear that the replica is not the original).
Nobody could sanely say that these two ideas are the same.
It would cost more to replicate, from scratch, a Lamborghini than buy one. It is a little principle called “Barrier to Entry” in the marketplace. (Economics 101…lecture …day four)
One would need to HAVE a Lamborghini to copy, disassemble it, measure every single component, have the machinery on hand to create all the parts, and then put one together. (Of course, in the process, violate dozens of patents, but that is just an old fashioned piece of nonsense, yes?)
However, a clever hacker could get all their intellectual property from the comfort of their hipster pad, yes?
So, we are back to square one, where you seem to confuse the ease with which something can be stolen, and the risk / cost associated with it.
By the way, a Lamborghini is really nothing more than the sum total of years of intellectual property, put into a physical form. Can you see how those are very much the same thing?
I just came up with a great idea! Please tell us all where we can go and download your music, etc. In a perfect world, you would be 98% done with your Doctoral Thesis, and we could download that, publish it, and render the entire thing worthless to you, but still serve the “greater good” by letting the world read it. How cool would that be? Please, don’t even reply with some bullshit about how if the world was better served…la la la..the point here is, and I know this is lost on you…It is not all about you. Some people create wonderful enriching content for both love and money, but rarely for love of money. That is why it is so doubly wrong to completely screw them.
Why keep insisting on being disagreeable? I agree that funding / paying creators is important. So do people who suggest things like this:
http://questioncopyright.org/how_to_free_your_work
It seems that you can’t or won’t even consider the idea that there can be any other reality besides either the legal status quo or complete lawless immoral anarchy. Only with such a simplistic view does it follow that you would accuse anyone who criticizes the status quo of being a complete immoral thief etc. I suggest you read Dan Ariely’s books. You need to understand more about how complex and nuanced the world is.
Anyhow here’s a challenge, try to buy a licence, at reasonable cost, to enable you to use commercial music as a sound track to your youtube or whatever social media, film clips, no chance, there’s a money making opportunity going begging there!
Interesting amnesty idea, are you going to have a book signing for your illegally downloaded content?
That being said, I find it a bit concerning that:
“Before it was my book being illegally downloaded, I was more on the “Information wants to be free” end of the spectrum. The sudden, though predictable,shift in my feelings when I found my own work being downloaded for free was a jarring experience.”
I’m afraid what you suggest in your statement/ doesn’t really say much for your principles or value system and yet that seems to be your area of study. I don’t need to have written the great American novel to empathize and understand that the person who has done the work deserves to be compensated for his time and effort. The suggestion that we can only appreciate and support a particular value when it appears to be in our immediate self interest is really anathema to having a value system in the first place.
In other words, I don’t see your “shift in feelings” as being “predictable” at all, unless your fundamental premise is that what is in your immediate best interest at the time constitutes a valid system of determining right from wrong.
In terms of the discussion up above, with Aaron Wolfe, I’m afraid your analogy is wrong. One the fundamental premise is wrong, anything that follows is worthless.
My post discusses a ‘nudge unit’ has recently been studying the best way to encourage people to be more water-conscious in their day-to-day lives. Essentially, these ‘nudge units (also known as Behavioural Insight Units), seek to achieve social change, without government regulation, by employing behavioural science techniques, which include using market signals, new media or other novel methods to encourage people to act in their own long-term interests.The study involved the following three steps of testing:
1) First, a selected household’s water consumption was measured over a period of time.
2) Second, a number of ‘signs’ communicating a particular message were placed above the doorways of the selected household (particularly above bathrooms, kitchens, and outside near garden houses). These signs read a variety of things that encouraged the more suistainable use of water, and included signs that read:
• ‘Saving water saves the Amazon’
• ‘Saving water will ensure a brighter future for your children’
• ‘Save water – the world is in your hands’
• ‘Be water conscious: because your neighbours are’
• ‘Every drop counts’
Notably, each household had only one of these types of messages (eg either about their children, the planet, or their neighbours, etc) communicated in their homes, with each sign saying the same thing, in different forms
3) Finally, the household’s water consumption was remeasured over the same period of time used in phase 1, to determine what impact (if any) the signs had on the household’s water consumption.
What is interesting is that before the water monitoring was conducted, the households were asked which ‘sign’ or message they thought would influence their water consumption the most. Which sign do you think would influence your behaviour the most? Well, the result from the initial survey of the households was that the sign communicating the message ‘Saving water will ensure a brighter future for your children’ was overwhelming selected as what people thought would be the most influential, with the sign about the neighbour’s water consumption coming in last – after all, we are all independent individuals who don’t care about what the neighbours think or are doing, but simply remain concerned with our own lives, right?
When it came to the crunch, however, it turned out that these selections were completely flawed. In fact, the households with the sign about the neighbour’s water consumption above their doorway displayed the most drastic change in people’s behaviour!
Essentially, this is an example of using peer influence to increase energy efficiency. While putting signs above everyone’s doorways is ultimately unrealistic (while the longevity of the signs effectiveness is also questionable), it does open up the possibility of using peer influence in other forms. One thing that could work, for example, is the inclusion of a graph on our water and power bills comparing our usage with the rest of the people in our neighbourhood, accompanied by commentary that might read something like: “compared with the rest of your neighbourhood, you consumed 31 per cent more water in the March quarter”, and so forth.
Do you think there is a similar solution to illegal downloads, whereby we can use ‘peer pressure’ or ‘peer comparison’ to reduce the way it is undermining the markets for books, music, and practically anything that can bought online?
The current patent wars can also undermine the sanctity of intellectual property. When rounded corners hardly the result of hard labour and diligence are claimed as private IP by overcharging lawyers, the lawyers are seen as making an “ass” of the law.
With both Obama and Romney accused of fibbing (the “factchecker” industry exists for a reason) politicians add to the “everyone is doing it” ethos.
“Information should be free” has an ambiguity that Dan glosses over: the distinction between “free as in speech” and “free as in beer”.
My point is that it is not just the consumer who is cheating. The issues are more societal.
Justice mandates retribution for the past and a complete redistribution of wealth and land. The whites should be disposessed of their spoils.
Let the whites pay for their crimes.
Our flag stays red !
That being said, let’s just say I reject your narrative and point of view.
I believe that we are ideologically in different camps, I look forward to future ding dongs with you.
Have a great day.
http://www.africaneconomicoutlook.org/en/data-statistics/table-14-poverty-and-income-distribution-indicators/
Please understand not everyone lives in NY, US that everything is available. There are remote countries and even more remote places where not even 0.001% of the decent material is available and at reasonable rates. With internet reaching everywhere, downloading is the fastest way to get something you would like to have, be it music, book or a movie.
You probably got funding from taxes and still you want to get paid to share your findings with the public. Isn’t that stealing?
I can only agree with the slippery slope sentiment. I often ski on it. Are we all skiing? Do some of us just manage to keep to the bunny hills?
It is unlikely that because someone downloads a pirated copy of your work, that they would necessarily have been interested enough in the subject matter to buy a copy in order to experience it had they not downloaded it for free.
You are not exactly offering the latest Stephen King novel, no matter how well written, the subject you are writing about is somewhat specialised, & people accessing it because they can get it for free is more likely to turn people on to your work or make them aware of your abilities/talents etc in order to either purchase the work, or consider your future works for purchase.
Or perhaps even to simply tell someone they know or encounter about a book they recently read, (Yours).
In addition to this, it is a fair argument in the case of the printed medium, to compare this practice to a library buying your book & then making it available to endless borrowers, as previous people have mentioned.
You may find it humorous or even ironic, but it is likely that whomever first uploaded it online, purchased a copy of it in order to scan it & do so.
You may wish to consider adding an addendum or foreword to your book to urge people to buy a copy in order to support you if they enjoyed your work or want to support it, Many pirates will do exactly that in an additional page added to printed works they have scanned & uploaded.
You certainly would not benefit from trying to prosecute anyone who had illegally downloaded your work, & would be turning people off you for good should you be one of the people/companies/corporations who attempt such practices.
You would probably find that if you embraced free distribution of your work, people’s financial appreciation of it would far exceed the level of revenue you would have received had your book not been made freely available, & the people who are interested in the subject matter you write about who were always going to buy your book will still do so regardless.
You could read the author Neil Gaiman’s thoughts on the piracy of his work for example, he feels that it has done nothing but good for him & his works & in reaching a wider audience. Granted, he has always been quite wealthy & I assume he did not have to worry about money in his career, but the concept remains valid & piracy has benefited him & his sales.
It is important to remember that each downloaded copy of your work does not represent a lost sale of a physical or electronic copy of your work. There is no proof whatsoever that this is the case.
I have not personally read your book, but may consider doing so, & I wish you luck with your work.
In this way, social consciousness can become far more enlightened, & advanced. this is much the same concept that I am sure led to the creation of the earliest examples of lending libraries for books.
I remember seeing someone on some download site who would sign each of his comments with the phrase “Thank you from the Isle Of Mann”, is your book available on the Isle Of Mann? Perhaps it is, in a bookshop or library, likely not.
Does your book sell, or get advertised in bookshops in every single english speaking country in the world? How many languages have you had it translated into? Pirates will sometimes translate books or comics as well.
There are ‘most illegally downloaded’ lists for every category of media should you seek them out, you will find that the ‘winner’ in every single category where such lists are compiled is a very successful, very high revenue earning item.
You will also find that studios & corporations have been crying foul ever since duplication technologies have been invented.
There were many howls of outrage to ban the audio cassette when it was first created, & look where that would have gotten us.
More recently, there was an outcry about a leaked copy of the movie ‘The Avengers’ which was pirated before release of the film, & yet it went on to become one of the biggest box office openers of all time.
The more that corporations complain & futilely try to combat piracy, the more their coffers & profits continue to mysteriously soar astronomically.
People are aware of their misdeeds and feel polluted by them.
are these two statements not fundamentally incompatible? Doesn’t your first argument argue that pirates don’t feel polluted, that they still think of themselves as good, and therefore have reason to do good?
Maybe that’s why surveys show that people who pirate music spend more on music every year than people who don’t.
When my wife and I were extremely stressed financially I discovered the cheap entertainment alternative of obtaining ripped copies of movies to watch. Over the next few years I “rationalized” my decision to do this by stating (to myself and friends) I would eventually buy copies of all of the movies I thought were worth buying once we could afford a blu-ray player, as we only had a dvd player and I refused to buy obsolete technologly and have STRONG feelings regarding purchasing multiple media formats of the same movie – I own VHS, regular dvds, special release dvds, and blu-rays of some movies…so including theatre release I have paid well over $100 for several films and I resent it. I now only buy movies for $10 ($15 if it’s exceptional) as my demonstration of what I think is fair to pay for these releases. I wish consumers would boycott any blu-ray over $25. The fact they even attempt to sell them at more than that price is pathetic and I shudder to think of paying that much.
Hopefully popularity of discounted copies of movies will work as well as Valve Software’s Steam platform has for games. They have clearly demonstrated how less greedy pricing leads to higher overall sales figures and I repeatedly show my willingness to pay reasonable prices for good games, and even small fees for less than stellar products.
I still refuse to pay for mp3s on iTunes until I have the right to access flac copies.
There’s law and there’s morality. They aren’t the same. Copyright was granted. It is not an inherent right. It is a concept that is less than 500 years old. For the bulk of mankind’s existence there was no such thing as copyright – even someone who thinks the Earth is only 10,000 years old would have to regard copyright as a novelty. There was also no such thing as air conditioners or vaccination either so I’m not arguing that copyright is inherently bad, I’m just pointing out that it’s a man made thing and not as natural as breathing air, the way some folks would have you believe.
It’s possible to disregard copyright, the way the people in the Bible, including Moses and Jesus, did, without affecting your moral inner compass. In fact it may be your duty. There are many instances in the Bible where men of God broke bad laws.
Infringing copyright may be illegal. It is not immoral.
Even among “primitive” animals, the one who first finds or produces something is given special rights of possession. So you could say, stealing a digital copy from its owner is as immoral as stealing a printed copy in the bookstore, as it harms the same moral instinct.
If you want the absolutist property-focused argument read Stephan Kinsella’s Against Intellectual Property. He is a strong anarcho-capitalist libertarian who believes everythign is about property and respecting ownership, and he also is completely convicing that ideas are not property in any real sense.
If you want the more mainstream pragmatic views, there’s tons of useful overviews out there. Consider Kirby Ferguson’s TED talk Embrace The Remix.
The simple fact is: treating ideas like property has horrible effects for society and is completely misguided.
Imagine the world was like the Internet. Where copying anything had more or less zero cost. We could copy anything, food, clothes, houses, cars and there was no scarcity of anything. Restricting it would be downright immoral. Heck we might not even have invented money in such a world. In such a system what is then the limiting factor? It’s the spread of information, of ideas and knowledge. Having restrictions and making artificial scarcity just hampers efficiency. So now this world and our physical world where everything is in short supply collides. The middle man distributor/publisher is cut out, and rightly so. Artists will still get paid, but you can’t or shouldn’t enforce every sale. Nobody in the stone age could have written Halmet and no artist have claim to their entire work either. A legion of inspiration and work from other people came before you to make it all possible. To have a clear line between these two paradigms I suggest saying that non commercial copying is allowed, as in no money changed hands. If however you made money, the creator gets his cut.
Anyway, I found the topic to be sufficiently interesting that I checked out an ebook by Dan from a library.
The system does need to be re-thought. You mentioned content creators. Consumers now feel that technological advancements in distribution and sharing entitle them to pay less, or nothing at all, for content. As with most debates, the answer is usually somewhere between the extreme positions.
My position is straightforward: as content consumers we pay mostly for the experience, and less so for the physical media or method of delivery (both marginal costs that, IMHO, represent a small fraction of the content’s production cost and “value”).
If artists/musicians/authors wish to make their content available at low or no cost to some subset of consumers, for example students and those less fortunate, it should be their decision to make not ours. If they choose not to make their content freely available or available at a reduced price, perhaps they’ll pay a steep price in the court of public opinion. That’s the market at work. Again, it’s their decision to make. The social and financial consequences will be of their own making.
Seriously if you want to make money of writing then write something that is worth reading more than once, or even worth reading full stop, develop a fan base. write it well and the dollars will come.
Define “worth reading”.
Value is contextual. One man’s (or group’s) trash is another’s treasure. It’s why one investor might dismiss seemingly unimportant numbers buried in a company’s financials while another might recognize its value and use the information to make a fortune. Different perspectives of the value of the same piece of information, and different outcomes.
Just because you believe a book, or song to piece of art has no value (or less value) doesn’t mean it’s overpriced or worthless. If you’ve read Dan’s first book then you know that mere exposure to information can influence your thinking in ways of which you aren’t even aware. So, even the content you believe to be without value may be of value – if not directly to you then perhaps to someone who wishes to influence you.
Even before opening the cover of his first book I felt Dan’s Predictably Irrational was “worth reading” and I was willing to pay for the experience of reading it. At the time I had no idea if I’d comprehend what he had written or even enjoy it. I paid for the opportunity to read it. In fact, I’ve read many books far beyond my level of comprehension and still enjoyed the challenge of understanding what I’ve read. That alone is worth the price of admission.
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If you wish to present this as a moral rather than an economic issue, you should dwell on the obscenity whereby copyright lasts for upwards of a hundred years (whereas patents last a mere twenty), often as long as 70 years after the original author has died. Greedy lawyers and big business have squeezed every commercial opportunity out of a privilege the founder fathers were happy to see set at 14 years. Did you know “Happy Birthday” is still subject to copyright, over 100 years after it was first sung? Sing it in public and you are liable to pay a fee.
I agree with others here that have stated that you incorrectly equate dis-honestly with illegal behaviour. I might be breaking the law but it is a law that I disagree with so don’t feel dishonest about nor want to make any kind of retribution
Also look at “pay what you want” systems. People pay a reasonable amount that they can afford, which varies from person to person… If everyone just wants everything for free why do people pay for the “humble indie bundles” or radiohead albums etc.
So until publishers, authors and companies like Amazon get a better model for selling books and magazines on line you are going to have to deal with it the way it is. I don’t what to be tied to a Kindle, or a Sony book reader! Just so they can make a ton of money. I would gladly pay for a service where like Spotify I had access to all the books in the world for a flat fee that was reasonable. The future for the dissemination of most information will cost. It seems to me and many other just greed that we should pay as much or more for a ebook with all its restrictions. The company that can offer ebooks cheaply for any device will be the one the public will flock to.
The problem isn’t if people are honest and moral, its are publishers and authors reasonable? Really 23 dollars for an ebook? We aren’t interested in what it costs Harper and Row to advertise, promote and all the bells and whistles. Time to adapt or die in the digital age.
As an outsider I might believe your income is not reasonable. Might you agree? Probably not. From your perspective perhaps you believe your income is very reasonable. Perhaps you might even feel it’s a bit low for the “value” you bring to the table.
Perhaps we, your fellow consumers, should demand that your employer lower your unreasonable income and pass that savings along to “the rest of us” in the form of lower prices for the products or services it offers. You are a cost and you’re too high for our taste.
Reasonable is contextual. For the right eBook content $23 could very well be an incredible bargain.
Now I am a very middle class consumer and reasonably aware that my funds are finite. So I obviously want to get what I would call something like value for money. No I don’t wish to screw anyone out of what they have worked for.
I now have a music service which I happily pay for and everyone involved is getting what they should. Even older artists who have fallen off the charts years ago are beginning to see royalties again as a whole new generation begins to discover them. It’s become an inexpensive way of downloading and reasonably equitable for all concerned.
I love books and have so many that I am keeping cases of them stored in my basement rather than part with them. Silly perhaps but I just can’t get rid of them.
Now for books, authors and publishers. I will gladly pay for a hard copy of any book and price is not a question. If its 5, 10 or 23 dollars it costs what it costs but that cost involves, the author, printer, art director, editor, computer typesetters, jacket printers, shippers, advertising, promotion and the book stores who of course have rent to pay.
In an internet world most of these expenses are mot. The formula for compensation changes and in my twisted little mind many of these expenses are non-existent or augmented by the form of delivery. I can’t say I actually know what a standard contract for an author is (what his percentage should be of sales) I don’t really see any reason why that should change. I don’t think that I should still have to pay the 23 dollars that a hard copy would cost because many of the costs are just not there. I am perfectly willing to see to it that my purchases benefit the author first and the publisher second.
You can blah blah blah all you like but no one in there right mind is saying the creative aspect of writing shouldn’t be financially rewarded we are simply saying that the model in use now for the purchasing of books seems like consumer is being fleeced. I need an e-reader or an iPad that costs whatever, then I am tied to it pretty much for the rest of my life. The unit cost of purchasing on line books is in honesty expensive for the average student or person (myself included). You can add to these expenses our need to communicate (phone and mobile phone, internet access and connections, TV channel packages, streaming services such as Netflix, not to forget on line banking) with the rest of the world through all the various ways that are available (for a price). All of this does make my like a bit more interesting or should I say connected no matter if it really does. My point being that for an average schmuck like myself cost is a factor. the publishing industry needs to take it into consideration. Falling sales of magazines as well of books makes it obvious that things need to change for everyone in the industry. I would just like to know why this industry has been so slow to get off the mark in a meaningful way. No I am not a advocate of 50 cent on line books, but I am sure that there is something in between where everyone can be happy and compensated.
This will be my last posting on this subject, the whole discussion is silly and has been going on far too long. If all those so called intellectuals and accountants out there can’t figure it out then, dah!
Besides after working around editors for a couple of years 95 percent of them are overpaid idiots and agents aren’t much better either. Maybe this is the part of the budget that needs trimming. No hate mail please.
I value content not by some notion of what content creators “deserve”, or production costs, or what I consider “reasonable” profit for their work, but by what their content offers to me in terms of knowledge, insight or entertainment that I might leverage and enjoy time and again.
Creators set their price and consumers simply decide whether their content is worth it. If it’s not, they don’t buy it. I don’t care if it costs them $5.00 or $0.05 to copy and electronically distribute, it doesn’t enhance or diminish the value of the content itself. Either I am willing to pay $23 for the opportunity to read a book, or I am not. Either I can afford it, or I cannot. It’s really that simple.
Bill, you view the world through the lens of cost-plus pricing. I view it through value-based pricing. We can simply agree that we disagree.
Alongside the legal protection is an industry who prey on the innovators. They are the ones most outraged by IP infringement – lawyers, record companies, book companies, academic publishers etc. They do bring some benefits, but they also add expense and, on balance, probably inhibit innovation.
Now that IP can be so easily circumvented or can be so valuable, we are seeing both a growth in ridiculous legal cases (Apple v Samsung for example) and an explosion of innovation.
The answer to the conundrum lies in our hands. It is a simple appeal to peoples morality over and above the law. Breach IP protection where you feel entitled to do so, but respect the spirit of it when you feel it is warranted.
For example, if you download a piece of music you play a lot and it was first released in, say, the last 15 years, then you could choose to pay for a CD or downloadable copy (even if you continue to use the illegal copy), or maybe just go and pay to see the act live. However if you just play it a couple of times or it is outside the period you deem appropriate for IP protection, don’t pay.
There is no universal moral imperative underpinning this position and it confers no particular legal authority, but it provides a route for people to feel that they are respecting and rewarding innovation according ot their means and conscience. The next step is for there to be a web site where you can go and pay actual cash, and have it redistributed directly to the party you consider morally owns the innovation.
As a once occasional downloader of music I have been stopped in my tracks with the advent of Spotify an online music site. I pay about 10 dollars a month and can listen to all the worlds music as much as I want, whenever I want. It wasn’t a morality issue for me, it was a price and convenience issue. I thought that 10 dollars was a fantastic number for me. I pay a lot to be connected to the outside world, I have accounts for TV, internet, telephone and mobile telephone service with surfing. It all costs! The 10 dollars comes to 120 dollars a year and its much more than I ever spent on buying CD’s. But I am happy to have such a great service that I can use anyplace that gives me fantastic value for money and everyone involved gets their cut of the money. So no more illegal downloading of music for me.
Now I have never downloaded a book, never really thought about it until one day I got this email about this debate.
It seems to me with so many people like me around (people who only manage to just earn a living) A book service like Spotify’s music site would is exactly whats needed. No more e-readers and contracts and being tied to one format. All the books of the world for a flat monthly fee. I am sure that millions of people would join. Spotify started out a couple of years ago here in Scandinavia and now it’s almost global. People love the idea of it and that they don’t have to download illegally any more. Why can’t the same thing be done for books.
For the many people who download because they don’t go to a library, (I don’t) or have 25 dollars a month for 1 book it seems that this kind of web site would be ideal. The money is in the volume. I think the people who sell us stuff have lost the plot; since when is 25 dollars no money for the majority of people? Look at the numbers most people are middle class and that number seems to be shrinking every day.
Of course all those big deal book agents and publishers will have to give up all those fancy dinners. Besides I never met an agent for anything that was really worth all the Buxx Shxx that they think they are worth.
Its all about a financial democracy where everyone wins a bit and no one wins hugely at the expense of everyone else. Its the best part of the web and why millions of people purchase stuff from the web. They simply can get it cheaper.
So the conclusion is make it possible for people to get all the books they could ever want at a price that most people can afford and the people or person who does that will be rich and we will be able to afford to read your books rather than guiltily download them for free.
Until the industry gives up its lunacy or simply dies a horrible from its own greed – they will just have to live with people downloading.
Yes, Spotify/Pandora are great for consumers who offer what seems like a thousand different excuses for why they shouldn’t have to pay more for the value received. Not such a good deal for those who create the content. Even at a volume of a half billion paying customers the income from one artist’s share of Spotify’s revenue is very likely south of $50k. Any Spotify employees reading this care to correct me if I am wrong?
The net of it is this: consumers, especially those who are not themselves digital content creators, don’t want to pay for value received. Hypocrites that we are, we all too often expect to receive more for our own value than we may be worth yet whine when others behave the same.
I am not a hypocrite in thinking that something is better than nothing. I once heard from a gallerist friend say that its can be better to sell a hundred of something at 100 dollars than nothing at 1000 dollars. He has a point.
If Spotify is not compensating artists for their work properly then organizations and unions have a target to get that situation rectified.
If the publishing industry would now, at the beginning, or should I say in the midst of a digital revolution change, they might be able to sort out some of the issues of compensation to writers before someone else does. I mean they really need to get ahead of the curve.
I don’t feel bad because I no longer illegally download music. Should I? I spend more than ever on music than I never did before I joined Spotify. Musicians have unions and governing organizations who have the resources to sort out who gets what. Since there aims at distribution of money is financial I am sure they will. Writers and publishers have many of the same organizations and aims.
You miss my point almost entirely. Its not rich people who are downloading or should we say stealing. At least I don’t think they are. Its people with a limited amount to spend on entertainment who have a plethora of garbage being hawked at them. Online gambling, shopping, travel, hotels, tv stations like QVC. It comes at people from every direction. What daycare center and how much, my rent goes up every year, my car insurance it astronomical and that goes on forever as well. Never forget we live in a consumer society, you only need to see how much credit people are living on or look at all the bills in your own inbox.
My argument is that this situation is, I understand a moral one but its driven for the most part by economics. You seem like an intelligent guy, can’t you see its all about the money. Its why the industry needs to adapt or they will lose in the end.
They are also in a market and its the market that will decide who lives and dies. Harsh but none the less a fact. In a world governed by financial consideration first, what chance does selling intellectual ideas of authors have? Come up with an idea of how to make money and we would not be talking morality you would be suing me (for the money) no discussion, take no prisoners. What makes writers or musicians any more or less special than an app developer or just some Jane that found every one wants 5 inch heels this year. Yes they should get there compensation but that compensation will be governed by what the market will tolerate. My point being that there must be (or there is) a way for intellectual property to make money, you just have to find it. The traditional way certainly isn’t working.
I am not going to justify myself by saying or thinking that I am such a great guy. Truth be know, I have a great many friends, so I can’t really be such a horrible human being. I think that I try to use my head for something other than a hat rack.
Born in the US I am a confirmed capitalist. I was also brought up in a Protestant house hold where the only reason for taking a day off of work was a death in the family (mine) and I would be expected back to work the next morning. While that may be moral it is also based in a long standing anglo/capitalist American tradition.
I have really blurred the line there but I think you understand what I am trying to convey. The whole thing is complicated. Adaptation if the way to survival in today’s society. Whats they old say adapt or die.
Perhaps bankers and politicians feel as you and I do. They “think of themselves as being honest”, and “try to behave accordingly”. Like us, they’re kidding themselves.
The question isn’t whether we are dishonest. We are all dishonest to some extent. Rather, it’s what we choose to be dishonest about and to whom that matters–at least in my opinion.
We should never reference the dishonesty of others and use it as an excuse. There is no excuse. If we’re going to behave more dishonestly than we have in the past we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
One cannot help but question the underlying character of an individual so easily led down a path of greater dishonesty. The more we experience the impact of dishonesty–our own and that of others–the more we should strive to reprimand it not embrace it.
Our moral framework is as it has always been: treat others as we wish to be treated. Some form of that philosophy appear in many cultures and written works throughout history.
We may not have the power to change the behavior of others or even exact retribution. But we do have the power to continue to hold ourselves to a higher standard regardless what others do. Their behavior is no excuse for our own.
however, when discussing dishonesty and ‘stealing’, sometimes there is a bit fo selective morality involved—in general for any crime.
ask the native americans who should be apologizing. ask african americans. and so on. ask alan turing why he didnt get a full tenured career at a university. ask Duke University how they turned tobacco and slave profits into a place where people can discuss morality and do some global warming denial (scafetta in the physics department).
i also come from a utilitarian, golden rule view. if Dan Ariel needs the money and will do something good with it, fine. But I don’t think he does. And the money might do nothing but buy luxury. Its partly ill gotten goods anyway, since justice in the cases mentioned above has not been achieved. (And an apology is not enough , or maybe it is—sure i stole your book; sorry.)
Now with almost everything being on-line what is that cost ? Things should be way cheaper on the net. You really want people to buy instead of stealing it ,make the price what it should really be…A hellva lot cheaper.
And it is had to imagine that people will stop realizing that authors need to eat, too. Surely, a “prisoner’s dilemma” may arise when every reader waits for the others to support the author. However, the bar on overcoming it is not high – it may turn out that not only authors will get their money, but also the readers will learn to avoid the “prisoner’s dilemma”.
You’re enjoying the results of the work of another without compensating them. That’s fine if they choose to give away that which they’ve produced or earned. Not so if they’re expecting to be compensated.
Frankly, I care not if it took five minutes for someone to write their life’s story, or 15 minutes to improvise a song. It’s not about time spent. It’s not about physical versus digital. It’s about the value of the results of their work. It’s about the benefits experienced by those who consume the results of the efforts of another. That a content creator asks $100 or even $1000 per “copy” for the privilege to read, watch or listen to their works is their prerogative. They’re free to put a price tag on the results of their effort.
Those who want the privilege to read, watch or listen pay for the privilege. Those who feel the price is too high or cannot afford it…are not entitled to free access. If they want to read a book or listen to a song or watch a movie so badly that they deliberately seek out pirated copies, I would argue that the movie, song or book must have value in their minds…value for which they are unwilling to pay. If the content had no value, why would one invest the time to download it?
Why would one keep a copy of a song with what they claim to be little or no value, and repeatedly play that song dozens if not hundreds or thousands of times over the years? Why would that same individual be so willing to pay $1.50 for bottle of soda, or $5.00 for a sandwich or $6.00 for a slice of cake on a regular basis…each of which he’ll enjoy for just a few minutes…yet whine incessantly about having to pay $0.99 for a 3 minute long song that he might listen to thousands of times? Or $5.00 for a two hour movie his entire family can enjoy together repeatedly over the years? Or $25.00 for a book that might share knowledge that enables him to achieve more in his career, or save thousands with DIY tips and instruction?
Why? Because people love to freeload and make up whatever excuses necessary to feel as if they have justified their actions…whatever lies they need to tell themselves in order to sleep well at night.
Your unpaid copy means you’re enjoying and in some way benefitting from the works of another without having paid for it.
http://mimiandeunice.com/2010/07/28/price-vs-value/
Too many of us think nothing of stripping/draining/ polluting/exploiting resources. Each of us seeking to extract maximum value at minimum cost to ourselves, and without regard for the cost to or impact on those around us.
If you don’t like the price set by a content creator, or you do not believe his prices accurately reflect the value of his work (to you), then you are free to shop elsewhere for more content that represents a better value (to you).
Over time the content creator will either a) choose to maintain current prices and serve a more exclusive audience or b) lower his prices to reach a wider audience. That’s for him to decide.
It’s not your product, not your service, and not your decision to set his pricing. It’s also not your right to access his content at no cost unless he has chosen to make it freely available.
Value is value.
What this has to do with attacking ships and stealing cargo is not clear.
Anyway, if I have a book or some music or some ideas, I should be free to share them with others. If you write a book, you don’t have to share it. You can ask people to pay you before you share it, that’s fine. What you’re proposing, however, is that we respect some rule that says that we can’t share ideas or music or whatever with others.
Get this straight: What is happening is people having things and sharing them voluntarily with others. There is no piracy here. An author shares something voluntarily, perhaps for a price, and others are making copies. That is what copyright is: the author’s legal ability to take AWAY rights to copy from anyone else.
The argument is this: one side says I should be able to copy and share whatever I have, the other side is saying that this right should be restricted. If you want a fair discussion, accept that reality and make your claims based on this context.
2. We both have an affinity for straw man arguments. If we want “fair discussion” first we should consider eliminating them from our comments.
3. We can choose to share our own value freely, but we should never expect others to agree to do the same.
4. We live in societies built on restrictions. If we don’t like the current rules we’re welcome to fight to change them. Until then, we should expect to pay the consequences for breaking existing rules.
i read a number of years back about a russian poet who noticed that countries where sales of his books were going up were the same as those where his work was being the most pirated. illegal downloading creates fans, who tend to want more even if they have to pay for it. of those 20,000 downloads of your book, i wonder how many have now become fans and would be keen to hear you speak?
the topic of my presentation subject, which i am going to present in university.
Some have events like Xmas or a birthday, when they are in need for a present.
Than they buy the beloved media and give it away.
The crappy ones are those who suffer. If the music is medocre, the book not worth reading and the movie only entertaining in fast forward, they wont make it to the present list.
Same with computers, I build an Hackintosh for the brother of my girlfriend.
When their mother had some money to burn (because of taxes) she bought a real iMac – knowing her son could help her out.
The other thing is that print on demand allows many unknown authors to become published, so the digital age is not all bad.
When people don´t even bother to copy your book, it time to worry. (unless you have a multimillion Dollar adcampaign running)-
Now, I use Ubuntu and F/OSS software where I can, making use of Project Gutenberg, buying the occasional ebook on Amazon, with my only pirated software being Office 2010. I dont WANT it; i’d much rather make do with LibreOffice. But my university insists on using the .docx format, which means I literally have to have it.
But why should I pay for something I dont want in the first place? its not like they couldnt give us PDFs with our assignments on. I can’t justify shelling out needlessly for something I don’t want, and need only because of some foolish inflexibility.
Just on a practical level a new business model will evolve …it has to.
Perhaps the service providers will pay the authors for downloads ..it won’t be much but added up some big royalties could be realised.
Apple have shown this to be possible with their apps on the ipad. They are incredibly cheap so trying to crack them is pointless.
Now some kind of tagging needs to applied to each work. Naturally people might get higher bills because they downloaded lots of stuff….but it won’t be crazy prices like they would be at today’s rates.
But on the other hand the authors revenue stream will be a lot broader…so they get paid enough for their efforts.
The business model is there and workable….it just needs everybody to say yes and this could be the way of the future.
You can argue the morality aspects till the cows come home but the piracy juggernaut won’t slow down till some new out of the box thinking is applied.
I agree a new model is needed. It’ll be interesting to see what emerges from this mess.
In my opinion the challenge is buried in statements such as “so they get paid enough for their efforts…” and the . Enough? Who defines “enough”? The market may influence the value of “enough” but it doesn’t define it.
Historically sellers set their prices. If a seller feels sales are fewer than desired because the price may be set “too high”, that seller either chooses to adjust his price downward until the desired sales volume is achieved, or masters selling on value.
Companies such as Starbucks have mastered selling on value. Want a $4.50 cup of coffee? Head over to Starbucks. If we feel $4.50 is an outrageous price for a cup of coffee that costs pennies to make, well, we are free to find a less expensive substitute (Dunkin), make our own (go Folgers!) or drink something other than coffee. There are alternatives, and as consumers we are under no obligations to buy a specific product, whether it’s a cup of coffee or a movie/song/book. However we should never expect that we are entitled to experience the value of a product either at a price we choose or for free. That’s not the way business works, nor should it be.
Strangely, consumers feel they have the right to tell sellers what they should charge for their goods as if they have a natural right to access the value such goods provide. That’s not the way life works. If we can’t afford the goods, they’re not ours to take. Alternatives are available. And if the sellers of these goods feel they aren’t selling enough at their current price points, they may choose to lower their prices (or find ways to sell on value) until they’re satisfied with the return on their investments.
Piracy may be virtually unstoppable, however those of us who choose not to pay for the goods we enjoy should expect to pay the piper if ever we’re caught and held accountable.
The argument on one side is: these freedoms are important for free society in general and are intellectually positive, and if your business can’t function while respecting these freedoms, then screw you, adapt your business or go out of business. The argument on the other side is: I deserve the power to restrict your freedoms because my business requires that I have that power and society is better off if I do business even if it requires these restrictions.
That’s the debate. It can be answered by getting better empirical evidence about whether the net influence of creative businesses that impose restrictions is positive or negative and whether society ought to accept that package or not.
There is no part of the debate that involves telling sellers what they can or can’t charge, other than saying that they will face whatever effects their prices have.
The desire to share with friends and family as we once did has long since been supplanted by the desire to “freely obtain” content from sources willing to “share” it with anyone who wishes not to have to pay for it.
The excuses are many. It’s too expensive. I can’t afford it. I’m a student with no money. I’m a single parent living on a limited income. “They” charge too much for what it “costs” to make. The price/profit should be “reasonable”. The list goes on seemingly endlessly.
It seems too many consumers would rather take the content than pay for it. Some claim that they’d not take the content if the price was “reasonable”. However, as Radiohead discovered, the large majority of consumers simply want free crap even if that crap has value to them.
There is another side of the debate, inextricably and unfortunately related to the one above which makes for a messy marriage. And that’s the ability to freely share, use and modify the things we purchase. As a writer and artist it’s an issue I can deeply appreciate. I enjoy the ability to use (for myself), share (with my family and select friends), and modify ( for my art).
However, I would never widely distribute the works of another freely, nor become a source from which many could freely obtain the works of another, no would I ever argue that I should be allowed to do either.
We cannot compare Jane Consumer who wishes to buy a book/movie/song/CD/DVD and share the content with immediate friends and family with Joe Consumer who really just cares about obtaining crap freely off of the Internet. Two very different people with different agendas who, unfortunately, are lumped together in the eyes of current legislation.
That said, the issue you are talking about is *freeloading* and it is a serious problem. However, as long as the answer to freeloading is to shame people for even accessing things (and you have no clue how people who download something actually value it, most surely do NOT value it enough to pay for it if they had to) and to restrict basic freedoms, then you don’t get sympathy for your stupid business model.
Freedoms, fair use, modification, sharing etc. are simply higher priority for all sorts of reasons than the business concerns here. Freeloading is a problem even if the assumptions of anti-piracy folks are extremely off-base about the extent and the meaning of the freeloading. Society needs to agree first that we respect freedoms and natural cultural processes, and then we can figure out how to address freeloading. That’s the order we need for these priorities, and I don’t care about the careless straw men who just want things “for free”, except that I furthermore reject the awful idea that we ought to have a price on absolutely everything. Dan Ariely’s research is the best you can find to emphasize why we should NOT be trying to price everything!
Try to just stop your absurd arguments with the chip-on-your-shoulder stuff about everyone being selfish and unethical because they want to freeload. Read Dan’s books. People are complex. They DON’T freeload from the restaurant even though they could. See the VERY POST WE’RE COMMENTING ON. When you move your argument to one that reflects the reality that copying things is NOT comparable to other issues, etc. then you will start to be productive in your thinking here.
Have you researched Radiohead’s “pay what you want” experiment? How about their decision to return to a traditional model shortly afterward? The only bias here is your refusal to accept that reality doesn’t align with your vision of how things should work.
In paragraph two you relate value to one’s willingness to pay for it. Interesting that you reference Dan’s work yet fail to recognize that some of his work points to the flaws in that poorly understood relationship.
“I reject”. How cute! Very Dr. Phil of you. Well, I reject your straw man that anyone above expressed the “awful idea that we ought to have a price on absolutely everything”. Who among us made that claim? I wrote that if you don’t like the price of a product, find an alternative. What you refer to as “freeloading” is, whether we like it or not, inextricably linked to the whole of copyright issues that affect Jane and Joe Consumer alike.
“They DON’T freeload from the restaurant even though they could.” Hmmmm. Really? Where in Dan’s books did you discover that? Please do point out the book title and page number. Perhaps I’ve forgotten the experiment.
We need only look to Panera Bread, its Panera Cares project and its noble “pay what you can” model. From its own account available on the Panera Cares website: “15-20% leave less or nothing”. Frankly, I believe they’re downplaying the impact, but I have no evidence to support that belief and they don’t make the organizations publicly available.
And all Caps Aaron? Seriously?
There he explicitly discusses the issue of people being honest in paying at restaurants. He then makes the same careless leap to copyright infringement that he makes in the post here.
Anyway, I’m not interested or impressed by the hand-wringing over copyright infringement. Dan’s books are great at explaining how people actually work, how they are not that dishonest but almost everyone is a little dishonest. Honor matters, and honor statements help etc.
The situation is pretty simple: if you acknowledge that people are how the evidence says they are, i.e. how Dan’s experiments show, then what’s the point of getting upset about it? It just is what it is, and technology affects all this.
On the whole, this technology which enables sharing on a much wider model than just friends and family is *good* for society. Its ramifications for older publishing business models are a concern but not one that is significant enough to justify the destruction of value that occurs when extra legal and technical limitations are put on products.
On bias, the issue is pretty simple: you have a conflict of interest as one with a business invested in the old restricted publishing world. That’s the point of Dan’s post. People can rationalize their positions. What’s *my* bias? I can tell you very plainly: I was building a career in the music business directly connected to these issues. I’m on the creative side. I struggled with this issue for a long time before recognizing that being a reactive defensive protectionist of my business wasn’t where I wanted to be. I decided to embrace the positive elements of the technology, embrace people’s inclination to share, etc., and I’m working on a solution to the freeloading dilemma that respects these things. I have no conflict of interest otherwise as I do not even bother viewing Hollywood movies or playing proprietary games or anything else like that.
I think the whole thing is simple to wrap up: I completely admit the freeloading issue is real and a concern to deal with. There’s nothing else to it. What do you want me to otherwise acknowledge? That people freeload purely because they have no morals? I don’t see evidence of that. That people freeload because they don’t care about authors? I see no evidence of that. I think people *should* feel concerned about freeloading. I hypothesize that the biggest reason people don’t care is because most people who attack freeloading demonize the whole issue to the extreme. They say freeloaders are immoral criminals or that they think things have no value and all sorts of other erroneous attacks. If you make careless inaccurate judgments of someone, it doesn’t lead to them caring about what you have to say.
So in the end, anyone who says that copying is stealing should be ignored. Those who can accept reality, that copying is not itself inherently a problem but freeloading in general is, those people can have a productive discussion.
I’ll try again.
They are so cheap that nobody has the incentive to crack them.
You can’t pass them on but they are so cheap….just buy them don’t bother trying to get them for free.
Why consider just apps ….they could be books or movies.
Software houses have made a total killing using this business model….the best reap the larger spoils but others survive much like they do in real life.
So a book is sold as an app say incredibly cheaply like 25 cents…
Even students would purchase at those rates….and their choice is limited to legal since nobody would bother to extract the pages to save a lousy 25 cents.
The problem here now is placed in the authors domain since they will know that some downloaders would happily pay ten times that. They need to lose that battle to win the war.
At the end of the day if you add up all the revenues from todays people that really wanted it and the try before you buy stroke freeloader brigade you might well end up in the same place financially and hopefully even better off for it!
I say might ….but right now this is exactly whats going on today care of the late Steve Jobs.
Prehaps this will be his true legacy.
Time will tell.
But fair dues to them testing the market.
Apple’s no-DRM music is now reasonable enough, although I still avoid it and encourage others to do the same. The App Store and iBooks however, are terrible. They have awful DRM that restricts fair use and locks people to their particular platforms. If you buy a real book, it does not restrict you. Apple’s locked-down platforms infringe on fair use, lock people in, and are horrible for freedom.
See https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/05/apples-crystal-prison-and-future-open-platforms
You are unfortunately correct that for the low price of most Apps, people *will* pay, but they lose their freedoms and Apple is gaining an absurd and dangerous monopolistic control over people.
You evidently have little to no understanding of just how much those “illegal” downloads are helping you sell more legal versions of your book. At least Hollywood is waking up to the fact that pirates help them sell movies, people like you are just still in denial. Keep punishing your genuine customers with worthless DRM if it makes you happy, your downfall not mine.
This reasoning appears often and I have yet in my near twenty three years following the topic read a single piece of evidence that demonstrates a clear connection between illegal sharing and increased sales.
The truth is neither side fully understands the impact. For now, we should all keep throwing ideas at the wall. Eventually a good one will stick, and endure.
So who is screwing who? Sounds like crocodile tears to me – boo hoo!
The conversation goes something like this… free email? Free radio? Free social networking? Why would I ever pay for it? Free browsing in a local store so I can then shop with a different vendor online? Let some other sucker pay for it. Let some other sucker buy the advertisers’ products, not me.
Consumers are perfectly content with letting others subsidize the services from which they freely benefit. And consumers, being the entitled little brats that we tend to be, will do whatever it takes to avoid paying for the fruits of someone else’s labor.
We now have a culture of consumers content with squeezing every last drop out of others. And when once resource dries up we simply move on to the next. Not surprisingly this is also how we tend to treat natural resources too.
Most amusing is that we love to bitch about corporations doing the same thing….as if they aren’t also run by consumers. So Bill, you might say we’re screwing ourselves.
The only thing that has changed is that we can get what we want faster through the internet, and we can be tracked while we are doing.
The author makes a good point about rationalization. I have done so myself with music, movies, TV shows. I am American but live outside the US. When I went to various websites where you can purchase songs, movies, etc., they would not allow me to do it, because I have a foreign IP address. So I said screw it, and downloaded it from not so “legal” sources. I have since discovered a proxy IP service that makes it appear I am in the USA. I now purchase media that I used to download illegally. However, representing myself as someone who is in the USA is technically “dishonest”. Should I have to do one dishonest thing so that I can be honest in another way? Yes, we rationalize, but many times the rationalization makes sense.
It is slightly off topic, but if you offered electronic copies of your books, you will be gaining consumers like me.
My point here being that self justification is a normal human action that we all undergo ergo the issue here is more about whether the persons own justifications are valid which in itself is down to individual interpretation and more importantly about what is considered culturally acceptable.
When people are seeing the actors/musicians etc. earning salaries that are unimaginable to most people then surely they will have no trouble finding justification for illegal downloads.
Perhaps as a follow-on to your book you could consider explaining how these excessively overpaid artists and their managers have no problem charging exorbitant rates for their products when they are already wealthy beyond most peoples dreams.
Mike
You may feel certain goods and services are excessively overpriced: Starbucks coffee, Brioni suits, Louboutin shoes, Alinea appetizers, your supervisor’s salary, your neighbor’s landscapers, Apple CEO’s salary or a ballplayer’s contract while others feel the people, products and services deliver benefits (to them) that justify the cost. Both sides attempt to justify and rationalize their perspectives.
Similarly, the producers of goods and services justify and rationalize their pricing typically through a lens of skill, expertise, quality or other means of differentiation. Even your compensation and mine is a matter of somewhat subjective rationalization – it could very well differ from one employer or client to the next.
Rather than allowing the market to naturally connect like-minded buyers and sellers, there are those among us who would prefer to impose their market view on the rest of us. If a consumer feels an artist’s work is “excessively overpriced” the solution is simple…the consumer can purchase the work of another artist who is, in their eyes, more “reasonably priced” (i.e. in alignment with their perception of value).
If the high priced artist finds that she has fewer than expected buyers at current asking prices, she’s free to lower her prices to attract a larger customer base. Should she choose to keep pricing on the high side, she’ll have to live with lower volume and, perhaps, less profit (though that isn’t necessarily the case).
The difficulty I have with the above is that I straddle the fence between the desire to freely share information and the notion that sellers are free to set prices and buyers are free to make choices about which sellers to support.
Where I draw the line is simple: I feel consumers who buy a product should feel free to share it, however I don’t believe they should feel free to share it broadly. There’s a difference between making a purchased good available to ten close friends/neighbors and ten thousand strangers. It’s a question of ethics.
On the other hand, if you haven’t purchased the product I see no reason why it shouldn’t be ok to borrow/receive it from a friend. Not ideal, but realistic. But to seek out digital works online for the sole purpose of avoiding the cost? Not cool.
Definitely no easy solution to this problem. There’s a subculture of people interested in the free exchange of information, and another in pursuit of obtaining digital goods without having to pay for them…ever. The first I can relate to, the second is taking a free ride on the effort’s of the first.
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entfernt „Muss Eingriff sind Platzierung operieren, häufig Gegensatz Berücksichtigung ausgeführt, bruststraffung preis
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betrachten unter nur können In grundsätzlich Plastische Chirurgie Zusammenhängen
telling the whole thing on the topic of that.
In the digital world the only price anyone seems to care about is Free. The risk of being caught is near zero and there’s virtually no incentive to behave otherwise.
As for context and order of magnitude, you evidently do not understand either: Whole computer games have been financied through kickstarter.
And yes, orders of magnitude, Tyelko. E.g. Torment was a Kickstarter project 465% funded. $4.2 million dollars. 74,405 backers. Impressive, Tyelko, but a drop in the digital piracy bucket.
Other revealing details about this Kickstarter project (which is one of the highest funded game projects in the site’s history):
1. The large majority of backers were promised significantly more than just a game in order to attract larger contributions. Read the lengthy list or promised deliverables.
2. A mere 317 of the 74k+ backers chose to donate in exchange for just a “heartfelt thank you”.
We could tally the total number of backers for all games, books, movies, songs and art on all Kickstarter-like sites since they were founded and still not come within a few orders of magnitude of the number of unauthorized downloads in a single month. No doubt some % of the backers perhaps downloading the works of others they have not “backed”.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that far more than 74k unauthorized/unlicensed downloads occur per minute worldwide.
Your turn. Go.
Ahem, yes. That would include the large number of people who wouldn’t have spent a single cent either way, but take it because it’s free.
Short: You’re trying to build a case out of a sampling error.
“And yes, orders of magnitude, Tyelko. E.g. Torment was a Kickstarter project 465% funded. $4.2 million dollars. 74,405 backers. Impressive, Tyelko, but a drop in the digital piracy bucket.”
For a single game? Hardly.
“The large majority of backers were promised significantly more than just a game in order to attract larger contributions. Read the lengthy list or promised deliverables.”
Yes, so? They are willing to PRE-FUND the game. Any regular investor or even the bank would want a dividend/interests, i.e. recurring payments.
“. A mere 317 of the 74k+ backers chose to donate in exchange for just a “heartfelt thank you”.”
So you are trying to build a case now out of the fact that people want to buy the game AND give additional money?
“We could tally the total number of backers for all games, books, movies, songs and art on all Kickstarter-like sites since they were founded and still not come within a few orders of magnitude of the number of unauthorized downloads in a single month. No doubt some % of the backers perhaps downloading the works of others they have not “backed”.”
That’s irrelevant, because the number of unauthorized downloads is a totally meaningless number.
“Your turn. Go.”
You have not made any case whatsoever. You are trying to get an exemption for media from general vagaries of running a business any enterprise has to deal with: Finding enough customers willing to pay. That’s nonsense.
By your logic, every turgid pile of garbage deserves tons of money, just because some people are willing to take it for free. The suggestion that that is in any way fair or promotes the art is ridiculous.
Your responses make it clear that you know little about Kickstarter, its gaming project stats, gaming industry investment and even less about venture capital. Ending with a strawman, well, that was icing on the cake.
-what consumers want
-when they want it
-how they want it delivered to them and
-what price they are willing to pay.
Take the makers of the TV series Game of Thrones, the most downloaded series currently. Why do people download it? Because
a)Getting the series is restricted to people with a full HBO subscription. But consumers might not be interested in the other offerings of HBO. Yes, packaging is a tried and true marketing measure. Problem is that it only works as long as consumers find it useful
b)Some countries might not have access to it at all. You will argue that HBO should be free to distribute it as it sees fit. And the answer is yes. But if they distribute it along their own needs instead of customer needs, they should not be surprised finding their profits suboptimal
c)In some countries, the series might only be available in a dubbed fashion, while people might be more interested in hearing Charles Dance, Sean Bean etc. in the original English.
The music industry suffered heavy losses when they misjudged how consumers wanted music to be delivered. They wanted to get it from the comfort of their home and they, too, wanted to be able to waive any packaging in albums if they didn’t like the overall package (as in: the added price did not seem to be adequate for the added value).
In the end, the people downloading your book are actually very honest with you: They tell you that the value they perceive your book to have is less than the price you or your distributor are asking. Now you have two options: Drop the price – or come up with something that convinces more people that your book is worth the price asked.
In the end, it is the task of you and your publisher to find enough paying customers to make ends meet.
That’s not at all the case. What they perceive is that the cost of producing the additional copy of the book, song, photo or movie is less, and therefore they feel they should pay less. This, totally independent of the value of the content. In fact, dare I say they almost completely ignore the value of the content because considering it undermines their attempts to rationalize what the price “should be”.
Consumers are willing to pay $25 for a meal that will provide brief satisfaction and meet only a fraction of their daily nutritional requirements. Even a bargain hunting consumer is willing to pay $4.99 for a meal with a lot less nutritional value. The same can be said for so many other goods and services.
Yet these same consumers will whine about $20 books that provide hours of entertainment and insight or perhaps a lifetime of the author’s experience captured and summarized in a couple hundred pages. Or they’ll look for ways to bypass restrictions and obtain music and apps that are available for under $5 that’ll provide endless hours of entertainment. Why? Because, they say, the publishers don’t have to print this stuff any more.
Consumers are hypocrites who would never under any circumstances appreciate the value of their own work diminished for any reason. Yet we are quick to diminish the value of the works/products/services of others so long as it benefits personal savings.
“That’s not at all the case. What they perceive is that the cost of producing the additional copy of the book, song, photo or movie is less, and therefore they feel they should pay less. This, totally independent of the value of the content. In fact, dare I say they almost completely ignore the value of the content because considering it undermines their attempts to rationalize what the price “should be”.”
This is a common fallacy. The “value of the content” is what people are willing to pay for it. First law of marketing: Value is subjective.
cf. http://www.thoughtlegion.com/the-first-law-of-marketing-all-value-is-subjective/
“Consumers are hypocrites who would never under any circumstances appreciate the value of their own work diminished for any reason. Yet we are quick to diminish the value of the works/products/services of others so long as it benefits personal savings.”
No, you are the hypocrite, because you believe that just because you put work into something, people should fawn and pay any price you demand, regardless of whether they see it as useful to them or not.
If you want people’s money, you better offer them something that is worth that money. Or rather: That they see as worth that money. Regardless of what went in there, it is your task to convince people it’s worth the price you ask. Apple did that marvelously with the iPhone: The prices they asked were ridiculous compared to the costs, but people paid premium willingly, because Apple was selling them much more than a phone: Apple was selling a style of life.
That is what you overlook with your example with the meal: People could get sustenance by going to McD. But they don’t want just sustenance. They want, and they get, far more than “brief satisfaction”. They get memories and possibly bragging rights. “We had our wedding dinner at the Salon at Per Se!” “We had our first dinner at Brooklyn Fare” “During our honeymoon, we dined at ‘Le Meurice’ in Paris!”
If you believe restaurants only say sustenance, taste and smell, I suggest never opening one. This is precisely why I say that illegal downloading is a marketing failure: You fail to convince people why they should give you the price you ask.
jqp, you are continuing your closed-minded durn-those-kids chip-on-your-shoulder stereotyping. It’s unconstructive. You can find examples that fit your stereotypes, but your broad brush trying to paint the world that way and put thoughts in the minds of others, assume their values and judge and belittle them, it’s all counterproductive and is leading others to write you off. If you want worthwhile discourse or to ever learn anything, you need to stop telling others what they think and listen more.
At some level, the hand-wringing about people being human is pathetic. Yes, people like getting things for free. So what? And in terms of your comparison to eating out, you have ZERO evidence about the correlation between those who eat out and those who share digital media. I have no idea how much or little those behaviors overlap in the same consumers. And since digital media *can* be shared freely and food cannot, I suspect that is the primary difference, which means there’s no hypocrisy here. Everyone who shares digital files would probably be THRILLED to make instant no-cost copies of food and freely share it with everyone in the world. And would you be talking about how awful it was for farmers and chefs that food can now be copied and shared on an unlimited scale??? If we could get that actually, it would be absolutely amazing!! And it would be worth putting chefs and farmers out of business rather than stop free food copying!!
But I suspect you didn’t want to actually look at the ramifications of your analogy…
“I can’t believe you are still debating this. It’s all been hashed out already. Tyelko, you are wrongly confusing value and price. They are not necessarily matched and that’s a basic aspect of economics. Price is determined by complex market factors and value is just one element that does not determine price on its own. Stop conflating them.”
I am, doing no such thing. Kindly read what I wrote instead of attacking me with some frivolous allegations. I never claimed that value and price are matched, I stated the exact opposite.
As far as evidence of correlation, do you really require evidence to believe that SOME of the folks paying to eat out aren’t also rationalizing illegal downloading (ahem, “sharing”) of songs, books and movies? If we consider fast food alone, 96% of the U.S. pigs out on fast food, 8 out of 10 at least once per month. Surely the downloaders aren’t only among the remaining 4%.
While I agree with most of the remainder of what you wrote, that has absolutely nothing to do with my intended point.
This is an assertion of fact. I don’t know it to be true, and I’m not just doubting you to doubt you. I seriously do not know if it is common for the same people to be *perfectly* willing without grudge or hesitation to pay $25 for a meal and also complain about the cost of apps or CDs or movies. I honestly do not accept the premise without more evidence. I don’t know it to be false, I just don’t know and am not just accepting your word for it.
Now, $5 is a very affordable meal and is cheaper than typical movie or CD prices, so that doesn’t mean as much. But your point was about more expensive.
Anyway, we can postulate perfectly rational reasons for people to react the way you suppose (even though I am skeptical of the premise). When I eat a meal, I know that my consumption directly cost other people. If I skipped the meal, the other people would not incur the cost. If I watch a movie or listen to a song or read an ebook, I have not incurred a new cost to anyone compared to skipping the movie etc. And thus, we have the fundamental issue here and the reason that it isn’t very interesting to compare how people perceive price for rivalrous vs non-rivalrous goods. The economics are fundamentally different, and everyone can sense that even if they don’t see the big picture.
A) information is immaterial, it can be received without being taken – it’s not like your car.
B) illegal downloading empowers the poor, most of the population on this planet is too poor to pay for any amount of books and music and movies (think Darfur). Should they not get access to information ?
C) illegal downloading is often a prelude to purchasing for those who can afford it. I’d never go to a movie I haven’t sampled because my time is valuable and I don’t waste it on bad movie theater nights. Every last book, Album, Movie or video game I’ve purchased in the last 3 years was illegally downloaded beforehand.
Now does that sound dishonest ?
I think it’s a new business model.
By the way, when they invented the printing press, authors bitched and moaned for a while too as well as monks who where making the hand written copies of bibles.
The arena hopes for even more passionate writers such as you
who aren’t afraid to say how they believe. Always follow your heart.
Every single reasonable person is now dumber for having read this.
Seriously! The amount of stupidity and ignorance of factual reality per square centimeter of this article is absolutely astounding.
But it’s ok – your views will soon be gone. Faster than you might think. The fact of the matter is that people are starting to view with suspicion the authors that whine about “muh copyright money” and cease to read the author entirely. And it’s great. Everyone should do that and put you and your greedy out-of-touch with reality publishers out of the market for good. Why? Because you deserve it. Plain and simple.
More and more musicians are releasing their work under creative commons license or completely free. More musicians under labels are openly advocating in concerts for fans to download their music from torrent websites.
The same is true with an increasing number of film-makers outside of that bubble you have there in Murrica (Hollywood). Authors are also forced by market forces to take their prices down. More and more people adopt a policy like mine: if a book costs more than 10$ in hard copy – then I will pirate it. Plain and simple.
And authors and publishing houses are starting to lower their prices and tell the authors: Either we sell it for 8$ or I’m not publishing your book.
It’s that simple. You can whine to the government or whine about imaginary morality as much as you like. At the end of the day, it’s the public (ie the free market) who gets to decide. And the market is against you.
I award you no points, and may Khtulu have mercy on your soul!
No, it isn’t. BMW doesn’t get a single cent for designing and building a car. They ONLY get money when people buy one. It is a frequent fallacy of creative people to believe that the fact that they put time, energy and all kinds of activities into something, they are entitled to money. You aren’t. The only thing that entitles you to money is a sale to a consumer.
“This is just digital shoplifting.”
No, it isn’t. You still can sell your book, song, whatever to as many paying customers as you can find. That’s not the case with physical entities. A book being stolen at a bookstore is shoplifting, because the book store owner will not be able to sell THAT PHYSICAL COPY – even if he HAD a buyer for it. A digitial work can still be sold to as many buyers you can find. But you have to find them.
When you pay for a BMW automobile, you aren’t just paying for the physical vehicle. You’re paying for the decades of effort, expertise, of design refinement, research, materials development, knowledge and creativity required to make such a vehicle possible to exist in physical form. You’re paying for the prestige (well, perhaps not with a BMW, but hey to each his own) and the belief that the product will meet your expectations about its benefits to you.
The same goes for a book, like it or not. That the book is printed or digital is all but irrelevant these days. You’re paying not for the physical paper and binding, but for the effort, expertise, knowledge, creativity and experience that made the content of the book/movie/song/image possible to exist. Without the content creator’s effort, that particular combination of words and thoughts, brush strokes and colors, sounds and compositions, images and story lines would not exist for your intellectual and sensory consumption.
That’s worth repeating. Without the content creator’s effort, that particular combination of words and thoughts, brush strokes and colors, sounds and compositions, images and story lines would not exist for your intellectual and sensory consumption.
Again, your laughable point is that it’s ok to take something so long as the product is easily replicated by whomever creates it.
What is going to happen when 3D printing goes mainstream? The printer and its upkeep cost will likely be yours. The materials cost will likely be yours. Will you be willing to pay the designers for their digital blueprints? Or will you choose to justify stealing the 3D blueprints because, well, there’s no physical product? After all, it’s just a digital file and according to your logic you’re not paying for the experience, expertise, development and design that went into it.
You’re also paying for the costs of marketing – the costs which you would like to avoid having to pay. But it’s telling that you believe prestige is something that just happens.
“The same goes for a book, like it or not. That the book is printed or digital is all but irrelevant these days. You’re paying not for the physical paper and binding, but for the effort, expertise, knowledge, creativity and experience that made the content of the book/movie/song/image possible to exist. ”
False. I’m paying for MY benefit. And if you don’t convince me that I benefit, you get no cash.
“That’s worth repeating. Without the content creator’s effort, that particular combination of words and thoughts, brush strokes and colors, sounds and compositions, images and story lines would not exist for your intellectual and sensory consumption.”
It’s worth repeating because it illustrates that you give a crap about the customer side. It doesn’t figure into your logic at all. You only know “me, me, me, me, me”.
Tell you what – ANY business with that ideology is doomed to fail.
“Again, your laughable point is that it’s ok to take something so long as the product is easily replicated by whomever creates it.”
What is laughable is that you claim that would be my point, It demonstrates you simply have no idea about making money with a product,
If you make no money, it’s not because people “steal” from you, it’s because the only benefit you know is your own, and that is not enough reason for people to give you money.
Did I claim prestige “just happens”? No. I will claim that marketing has helped shape your perception and mine–whether we like to believe that or not. The marketing you “reluctantly” pay for is the very same force that drives your consumption. In many cases you wouldn’t want the product or service if it were not for the brand’s public image. You can tell yourself otherwise. I suggest you ask the most successful brands why they don’t simply stop advertising altogether. Your statement is nothing more than a distraction from the point I had made–the one you failed to address.
“False. I’m paying for MY benefit. And if you don’t convince me that I benefit, you get no cash.”
“It’s worth repeating because it illustrates that you give a crap about the customer side. It doesn’t figure into your logic at all. You only know “me, me, me, me, me”.
YOUR benefit and MINE is made possible by the efforts and expertise of those who create. Without the artist/musician/ author/producer/manufacturer’s investment of time, know-how, finances and effort, there’d be no benefit at all for the rest of us to reap.
If you believe there is no value in the efforts of another person I cannot help but wonder why you would want their stuff in the first place. Why bother downloading it? Why read it? Why listen to it, repeatedly? Why watch it even one time?
“What is laughable is that you claim that would be my point, It demonstrates you simply have no idea about making money with a product, if you make no money, it’s not because people “steal” from you, it’s because the only benefit you know is your own, and that is not enough reason for people to give you money.”
Another distraction. You provided ample support of your beliefs in your response to Ashton. To paraphrase your response: if it’s not a physical copy it’s not stealing.
You’re not talking about buying an ebook/movie/song, then asking for a refund from its creator if you didn’t enjoy it or feel it had value. I see nothing wrong with that. Perhaps they’d be open to giving you refunds. No, you want to “test drive” a product and choose whether or not to pay for it regardless if it benefits you or not. And you believe it is your right to do so because it’s not a physical product. Good luck with that.
No, it isn’t. You simply confirm that you do not understand what marketing is to begin with, Incidentally, Apple got by with very little advertisement internationally for years. Heck, they would have managed selling iPhones through selling robots – people would have bought anyway. But that’s not their style – and that’s why some companies advertise their brands even though they don’t have to.
“YOUR benefit and MINE is made possible by the efforts and expertise of those who create. Without the artist/musician/ author/producer/manufacturer’s investment of time, know-how, finances and effort, there’d be no benefit at all for the rest of us to reap.”
False. My benefit is made possible by a tiny fraction of those who create and THEY are entitled to my money. The pure fact that someone creates something doesn’t.
“Another distraction. You provided ample support of your beliefs in your response to Ashton. To paraphrase your response: if it’s not a physical copy it’s not stealing.”
You might want to believe that the law is a distraction, but you hold that opinion at your own risk.
“You’re not talking about buying an ebook/movie/song, then asking for a refund from its creator if you didn’t enjoy it or feel it had value. I see nothing wrong with that. Perhaps they’d be open to giving you refunds. No, you want to “test drive” a product and choose whether or not to pay for it regardless if it benefits you or not. And you believe it is your right to do so because it’s not a physical product. Good luck with that.”
Good luck with learning some reading comprehension, you DESPERATELY need it. You are spooling off the usual truckload of accusations. Please, come back when you are actually willing to discuss arguments made.
“And it has not gone unnoticed that you completely avoided my questions about 3D printing, Tyelko. What are you going to do when the physical production rests in your hands and the designs come from other sources?”
That would probably be because I have worked in the marketing of physical products – and know that what is ACTUALLY being sold is not just a physical object.
My plan is to do as I would with any other product. I’ll purchase a design, print it and if there’s a problem with it and I have no plan to use the design further, I’ll hope I can obtain some sort of refund, full or partial.
I offer a sincere thank you. If it were not for such beliefs I’d not be in business all these years helping companies recover from the failed “marketing” efforts of others.
Until you’re prepared to take responsibility for your statements, take account of the laws and concepts you claim to understand, and actually answers questions without providing misdirection, it’s pointless engaging you in a discussion.
I like the way Mini shop doing business, give it free weapon to rebel just in case when the future country have formed then they will buy the weapon legally.
I hope some people will sell cheap linux and make it simple as windows is. I dont understand how to use linux. I even never now how directory structure in Linux. I hate to install something need to put some code in shell DOS. I just want click and run.
We live in instant world, nobody want to stand from their chair only to turn the channel knob. We want fast instant and we have money to buy this instant egoistic lazyness.
no wonder people become more fat fat and fat.
The patient should keep in mind that certain health conditions and other medications may also cause other adverse reactions
or increase the severity of the milder effects.
Even so the trends are commuting and more and more people prefer to purchase drugs from Online Stores.
That first web browser introduced the road for the growth as well as
the progression of what’s now referred to as the internet,
the humongous network of real information and communication that has influenced
the lives of huge numbers of people the world over.
visitors, who are wishing for blogging.
I play music. I have a lot of friends musicians. All of them are strugguling to get some acceptable revenue from their art.
I suffured so much while practising my instrument and learning music. These are hours and days and years of loneliness to be able to get it right on stage.
I don’t download illegally. It just doesn’t sound right.
Concerning books, I love staying in book shops for hours, going from one book to an other and finally making my mind on one title that I will actually read.
Illigal downloading stimulates boulimia and fear of missing. But once 50 giga of files are downloaded, nobody spends the time to use these files because there are simply too many. So, our best databases are polluted with useless content.
Why should I pay again and again for the same music as and when the technology changes?
As for books, in Delhi (which is the capital of India) there used to be a bookstore, Ramakrishna. This store was owned by a true lover of books and he was an exception. He would allow any body to spend as much time as one wanted in the store – even read a book for free – as long as the customer did not mutilate the book. He even had tables for the customer to sit and read. I am talking about a country where Libraries were hard to find, where feeding oneself and one’s family was the priority and finding money for books was low down the priority list.
I got educated and became an Engineer due to largesse of the US which helped set up my college under the Kanpur Indo American program. They made books available at 1/10th the American price and then one could return the book for a discount of 10% and buy the next year’s books. Ironically, the soviet Union also helped in our education with the supply of really inexpensive books through Mir Publishers and Progress Publishers. Then the big publishers like Wiley etc. came up with less expensive Asian editions and later even Indian editions.
When we copy medicines, manufacture and market them in the third world, medicines for Aids, Cancer, Heart disease etc. at a fraction of the cost of the companies that developed them the same charge of cheating is held out against our society, government and businesses. What about the benefits to the poor of the world? There are no correct answers to this. However, is this too a rationalization?
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Anything that you may have intended on paying for
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Once the money is provided to the beneficiaries the insurer will not be
responsible for the same any more.
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You are free to apply your principles on YOU and what YOU produce. Not on others.
The biggest damage this produces is that people start to convince themselves and others that it isn’t anything wrong with this. So they bend and twist their sense of ethic.
And exactly wrong in your conclusion. If I make a copy of something, then *I* am the one who produced the copy, and it is plainly wrong for someone else to enforce their principles on me by telling me what I can or can’t do with the copy that I produced. Copyright is a form of control and power over others. It is the copyright enforcers who are guilty of applying their principles to others.
As to it being “stealing”, that is wrong technically, legally, practically… It is “infringing” not stealing. Not all types of illegal behavior or debatable actions are specifically stealing. If I punch you, I didn’t “steal”, I assaulted. If your viewpoint doesn’t hold up if you stick to the accurate statement of “copyright infringement” then you probably have no basis for your view.
Mind you, to write a scientific book is very much unlike fiction and their purpose is to make available the results of extensive research for peers. Yet my royalties are a ridiculous pittance while my publisher rakes in the money for my work.
Speaking like analyst which is seeing only numbers for me only explanation for prices of electronic books is illegal agreement between publishers. It is economical not possible that price of your electronic book :
“Predictably Irrational, Revised and Expanded Edition: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions” is today on Amazon 11.49 $ and price of paperback version is 9.82 $
if you want I can use other example:
“The Honest Truth About Dishonesty: How We Lie to Everyone–Especially Ourselves” with electronic version price 10.99 $ and paperback version price 12.43 $
Because of resources used for making and selling of paperback version it can’t be possible that electronic and paperback version are having similar prices or in other words if price of paperback version is 10 $ then electronic version must have price of around 5 $.
My point is:
Publishers are using illegal agreements for raising prices of electronic books and on other side readers are using illegal actions to read books.
It is not possible to say that readers are criminals (because of copyright), but publishers are innocent.
Cost-plus pricing is used by lazy, below average executives the world over. It’s exactly this mentality that has rubbed off on consumers who now love (love, love, love, love) to use it as justification for lowering the price of any books made available electronically.
Consumers love a good “value”. At one extreme, perceived value is one of the primary drivers that make $100k wedding bands, $10k designer dresses, $5k watches, and $6 coffees possible.
At the other extreme exists the consumer hell bent on low costs no matter what. As long as they have access to rock bottom prices, you’ll not hear them complain. Hold up…that’s not true. They still manage to find ways to complain. Apparently the quality and value of their new $10 watch and $75 microwave aren’t up to their “expectations”. So they too have value standards…accompanied by an unwillingness to pay for it.
Yet across the spectrum of consumers, when it comes to the topic of the value of the words and pictures “between the covers” of a book….value isn’t almost never part of the discussion. They focus almost exclusively on the cost of production and distribution – paper versus electronic – and reason that they should simply pay less now. Some mention the big bad greedy publishers. Others talk about how you can’t “steal” something that isn’t physical. Still others explain how it’s not stealing really anyway – just look at this legal text and this dictionary definition.
In my opinion, all well meaning but very lame attempts to gloss over the value created by authors in the space between the covers of their book.
We can debate the value of a particular book on its own merit – independent of the way it’s produced and distributed. We can be upset that we paid $10 for an awful piece of fiction that brought us no enjoyment, or thrilled that we paid just $50 for the invaluable insight of one of today’s brightest minds. At least then we’ve shifted the discussion to one of value, not a simplistic self-serving view based on cost.
It matters not if the author can “print” a million copies with the click of her mouse. What matters is the value she may offer, and if you feel it’s worth the price of admission. If you do not, well, don’t buy her book…after all, you don’t think it has sufficient value now do you?
The fact remains that some people want the value – and they simply do not want to pay for it. And they’re willing to come up with whatever excuse necessary to make themselves feel better, to justify their actions.
At least the folks who check a book out of the library are using a legitimate source. That library has already paid for the ability to lend the book to unlimited readers.
You can slice and dice it all you like. Call it emotional, illogical, ill-founded and not shared by others. And you well know I can say the same and it will be no less true of your own statements.
It’s all pretty well explained here: http://blog.ninapaley.com/2011/07/09/culture-is-anti-rivalrous/
Cheers
Each town in which we deliver the in-person workshops is allowed to charge whatever they want and keep 100% of the proceeds to cover their facilities costs and perhaps other local programs. Some charge nothing at all, others charge $10, $20 even $50 per person.
I do hope more content creators opt to find ways to make some of their content available for free or low cost.
Cheers
I defend the content creators’ right to choose how they make the results of their effort available.
I’ll definitely take a look at snowdrift. There is certainly an appeal to funding without copyright – just the thought of denying law firms the revenue they generate from copyright squabbles makes me smile.
But it depends. So many questions. Who determines/sets the value of the work, if not the consumer? And how does that translate into funding? Etc. I’ll take a look.
That’s why freebies can be a dangerous thing. Even if the author of a freebie agrees with it being provided for free, it has repercussions on the perceived relative value of other products and thus influences the readiness to pay for them. Take another area, computer games: There’s plenty of flash animation games available on ad-supported websites on the internet. Why should I pay for a casual game when I can have hundreds for free? By now, there are numerous massively multiplayer online games following the free-to-play model. What does that do to the readiness of consumers to pay a fixed sum for the game of someone not following that model?
You say you defend the creator’s right to choose, but at the same time, no creator exists in a limbo.
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You obviously think you outwitted him and destroyed his argument. I think this most unlikely; he saw no point in discussing it with you. The simple thing is that most of those illegally downloading are young and cannot afford the published or recorded version; you and your publisher do not lose any money.
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